Planning Bioactive - Advice please?

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03-10-2016, 02:51 PM
scalypasta



Quote:

Originally Posted by distaff

There is a bonsai guy on YouTube who says that the fastest way to start an argument with other bonsai people is to mention soil composition; religion and politics would be safer topics. ... That said, aquaponics is flood-and-drain for a reason. The roots in the hydroballs (or, whatever) get the needed air every few minutes, and nothing is trapped in a small glass box with 100% humidity. Personally, I think a waterfall is going to add too much humidity, that will run down the glass walls, and cause a mucky mess that will wick into the upper layers. A drilled drain near the bottom might be necessary. You want the humidity proper for a BP.  As far as plants go, the I am familiar with most of those. I would leave out Dieffembachia (it grows quite big anyway)...

 Bonsais are bonsais because the roots and leaves are periodically trimmed so that they have to spend their energy regrowing those instead of growing branches. Other than that, they're just regular trees, so I figured it would do alright in soil that's grown the tree species? This is all ages away, so I figured I would have time to play with what to do for individual plants. If you've got any specific recommendations for flora, do let me know! This is my first time planning anything like this. Aquaponics itself is a little complicated for a setup like this, but I was thinking it could work more like my rooting stations, which are large five-gallon or bigger buckets with a little fountain pump and a bunch of holes in the lid for net cups to sit in. It sounds too simple to do any good, but I have consistently had plants grow several feet of roots down into the water like this. No draining necessary. (Ie. the water being pumped through the drainage layer would also help the plants grow like the water in the bucket does. Big roots and big leaves mean a comparatively hardy plant, in most cases.) Tomatoes, squash, cucumbers, caladiums, aloe vera, rosemary, roses, tree saplings, and even cuttings off of random plants have thrived this way. Admittedly this will be a whole different crew of plants, but like I said, this is in some far-off future. I'll be doing plenty of testing before I actually put an animal in any set-up. And you're right about the humidity for the BP- I'll have to prototype, test, and reinvent a little. I spent quite a while researching some of these plants to make sure they were care-compatible with a BP, but some of them I just saw in passing and threw up there to research later <img src="http://ball-pythons.net/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.png" border="0" alt="" title="Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)" smilieid="7" class="inlineimg"> Dieffenbachia was one of those, so thanks for saving me the research on that one. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by distaff

Remember to plant sparingly - leave some room for the snake.  The bio-active part is more in the soil microbes and tiny critters than it is with the plants. Think of a successful compost pile - it is bio-active, but has nothing planted in it.

 This would all be going in a custom enclosure, which would accommodate the substrate and plants as well as plenty of room for the snake. For reference what he's in now is about 1 x 2 x 3 and stocked full of aspen and hides. The custom would be the same size or bigger, and taller to accommodate substrate, plant growth, and the aforementioned climbing levels. Every time I handle him all he wants to do is climb so I have a feeling he'll utilize anything I put in there. A BP doesn't really make much waste in the first place, so honestly my focus isn't on not having to clean; I just like plants and they provide nice cover and a more natural environment for him. I've honestly considered leaving out the cleaning crew and going with "naturalistic," but I wanted to build a snail terrarium anyway. Snails are natural cleaners, like omnivorous vultures or the shrimp in an aquarium. They eat everything. They'll probably attack my plants a lot but I plan to provide them some food, considering there shouldn't be much heavy cleaning to do on their part. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by distaff

I ordered an extra UTH and an extra t-stat removable probe for adapting the UTH to be compatible with a bio-active substrate. The materials haven't arrived yet, but the plan is to silicone the UTH and probe to the top side of an insulating styrafoam base. I have a slate tile I'll place over that. With everything sealed in by silicone, it *should* be safe from the usual accidents, and radiate enough heat through the slate to warm the animal. Fingers crossed for "the best laid plans..." on this one.

 Interesting idea! It would definitely work in theory, as long as the slate doesn't get too hot. I'll be interested to know how it works out. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by distaff

This all looks too complicated.  You want everything, EVERYTHING! accessible and easy to take out and clean. Personally, I would just get some hides that look like caves, and add some texture that allows you to maybe grow moss slurry on them. I hide the hides under large sheets of tree bark. If the bark gets pooped on, I can just break that part off, or replace it.  This whole setup will be probably too humid as is, and even with no water features, you will NOT need a humid hide.

 You're right about the underground hides, I'll rethink that. I've already commented about testing it for humidity. <img src="http://ball-pythons.net/forums/images/smilies/th_fing02.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Good Job" smilieid="200" class="inlineimg"> 

Quote:

Originally Posted by distaff

Earthworms have the reputation of turning a tiny viv area into mush. I've never seen anyone recommend snails for this application. Spring tails and pill bugs are the standard crew for this.  You will still need to clean some. I would get rid of any substancial waste piles, and turn under the surface that was under that.

 I didn't think about worms doing that. Is there anything you recommend specifically for the soil? I'm aware that spring tails and pill bugs are the standard crew, and I may end up using them, but I'd like to try snails at least in my smaller testing setup and see if it would work. My BP craps in one pile once every blue moon, so as previously stated, I don't mind doing some cleaning and there's not really gonna be that much for the cleaning crew to do. They'll mostly be tending to the plant life and cleaning up mold and such more than anything else. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by distaff

Keep it simple, and keep to tried-and-true guidelines. You can go out on to more elaborate set-ups after you have some experience with the first one. (I really think that water feature is going to be a major PITA to maintain, and won't be of any benefit to your pet.)

 I definitely hear what you're saying about experience, but in fairness, if no one tried anything new we wouldn't have the systems we have now, much less better ones in the future. If nothing else I'll make it science hour and document my methods, the problems, and why it didn't work. And as I said before, this isn't something I'm doing now. It's just planning. I very well might build one to more conventional guidelines first, but right now I only have the one reptile, so there's no point in planning like five vivs. Pretzel for one seems to like having the option to soak in water, so if I don't do an automated water feature I'd still essentially be doing the same thing, less automated. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by distaff

The lucky bamboo you specifically mentioned should be safe. Make sure any plants you purchase are pesticide free. Also wash all the soil off the roots under the faucet to get rid of chemical fertilizers. The fertilizer *probably* won't harm the snake (?), but that stuff has been reported to kill frogs (Natural Terrariums, Philip Purser....somewhere in that book). Don't use compost at a garden center - nasty stuff is frequently in there. Personally, I wouldn't even use it on a flower bed.

 Thank you! I garden completely organically, so I repot new plants and quarantine them for 1-3 months before I do much with them. It lets pesticides be flushed from the system and the plant get fairly well-established in a bigger pot before the big move to the aquaponics system. Thanks for the tip about fertilizer- I'll definitely be careful to keep that out. <img src="http://ball-pythons.net/forums/images/smilies/extended/icon_omg.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Omg" smilieid="129" class="inlineimg"> I make compost myself so garden center compost won't be an issue.
03-10-2016, 02:53 PM
scalypasta

Re: Planning Bioactive - Advice please?

It would do this after I spent that long responding to everyone's comments :rofl:
03-12-2016, 10:27 PM
Snake Judy

Re: Planning Bioactive - Advice please?

Quote:

I didn't think about worms doing that. Is there anything you specifically for the soil? I'm aware that spring tails and pill bugs are the standard crew, and I may end up using them, but I'd like to try snails at least in my smaller testing setup and see if it would work. My BP craps in one pile once every blue moon, so as previously stated, I don't mind doing some cleaning and there's not really gonna be that much for the cleaning crew to do. They'll mostly be tending to the plant life and cleaning up mold and such more than anything else.

Snails may clear up a bit of fungi but are just as likely to go after living plants and are generally considered a hard-to-control pest in planted enclosures. I think you'd probably be best off with the standard springtails and isopods. That's what I keep in mine and have had good results so far.
03-13-2016, 12:39 AM
MarkS

Best of luck with that. It's been tried many times before. Maybe you can actually make it work, most people can't. I've given it a try myself. Frankly what I've found is that ball pythons just get too big, are too destructive to the plants and move the substrate around too much, and frankly just crap too much to make a good go of a bioactive environment. Frankly I gave up before my ball pythons even reached full sized and I found that plastic tubs with a newspaper substrate are MUCH easier to clean and maintain, and the snakes seem to like it better too.

Don't get me wrong, I really like a naturalistic looking tank which is why I have terrariums with small lizards and PDF's with lots of live plants and a misting system and a good number of microfauna. That kind of setup works REALLY well for small geckos and PDF's. It doesn't work so great for something the size of ball pythons. But, give it a shot and see what happens. Make sure to post your results and let us know what works and what doesn't.
03-13-2016, 06:20 AM
Aztec4mia

The Art of Keeping Snakes - by Philippe de Vosjoli is a good place to start.
03-13-2016, 10:00 AM
distaff

Re: Planning Bioactive - Advice please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkS

Best of luck with that. It's been tried many times before. Maybe you can actually make it work, most people can't. I've given it a try myself. Frankly what I've found is that ball pythons just get too big, are too destructive to the plants and move the substrate around too much, and frankly just crap too much to make a good go of a bioactive environment. Frankly I gave up before my ball pythons even reached full sized and I found that plastic tubs with a newspaper substrate are MUCH easier to clean and maintain, and the snakes seem to like it better too.

Don't get me wrong, I really like a naturalistic looking tank which is why I have terrariums with small lizards and PDF's with lots of live plants and a misting system and a good number of microfauna. That kind of setup works REALLY well for small geckos and PDF's. It doesn't work so great for something the size of ball pythons. But, give it a shot and see what happens. Make sure to post your results and let us know what works and what doesn't.

Perhaps the missing ingredients have been a clay substrate of suitable mineral composition, and the correct species of termite. :P

Haven't found much about the natural history of these animals, but my impression is that they don't hang out much in lushly planted areas in the wild. My mental picture is savannah, but I could be completely wrong, and pics I've seen of places like Accra, Ghana have had more greenery.

If the keeper is merely looking for a satisfying aesthetic experience, and not hung up on "bio-active," a naturalistic viv can be much simpler. My king is in a good looking "dry" vivarium. His plastic hides are concealed under large sheets of bark, and an interlocking arrangement of weathered branches fills out the vertical space. The heating is from two UTH's, and since there is no overhead lighting or heaters, all electrical cords are concealed at the bottom. Near one corner, he has an attractive pottery bowl for water set on an irregular slate tile. CareFresh currently covers the rest of the floor; this will be replaced with Sani-chips for a more natural sandy impression. I set the viv up with inspiration from Amano Takashi's (spell?) aquascapes. Even with nothing actually alive in there but the king, it is an attractive viv, and satisfies that snake's husbandry requirements.
03-13-2016, 12:10 PM
Snake Judy

Re: Planning Bioactive - Advice please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkS

Best of luck with that. It's been tried many times before. Maybe you can actually make it work, most people can't. I've given it a try myself. Frankly what I've found is that ball pythons just get too big, are too destructive to the plants and move the substrate around too much, and frankly just crap too much to make a good go of a bioactive environment. Frankly I gave up before my ball pythons even reached full sized and I found that plastic tubs with a newspaper substrate are MUCH easier to clean and maintain, and the snakes seem to like it better too.

Don't get me wrong, I really like a naturalistic looking tank which is why I have terrariums with small lizards and PDF's with lots of live plants and a misting system and a good number of microfauna. That kind of setup works REALLY well for small geckos and PDF's. It doesn't work so great for something the size of ball pythons. But, give it a shot and see what happens. Make sure to post your results and let us know what works and what doesn't.

I've had mine running for about 9-10 months with no issue. The enclosure is fresh and the plants are still healthy and growing, through I'm using pretty resilient ones like dracaenas. Snake is approaching 900g so we'll see how it does when she's full size, but I don't anticipate any big problems. I do spot clean feces and urates, which I think is necessary to some extent for any larger animal in a bioactive set-up.
03-13-2016, 01:43 PM
distaff

Re: Planning Bioactive - Advice please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake Judy

I've had mine running for about 9-10 months with no issue. The enclosure is fresh and the plants are still healthy and growing, through I'm using pretty resilient ones like dracaenas. Snake is approaching 900g so we'll see how it does when she's full size, but I don't anticipate any big problems. I do spot clean feces and urates, which I think is necessary to some extent for any larger animal in a bioactive set-up.

Back when I had gravel and substrate trays of plants in with the tiny kings, even an active 20 gram animal could do plenty of damage! Learned a lot about what NOT to do, and what DOESN'T work. The corn is 230 grams. A kangaroo fern (sorry, there is contention on the Latin name at even the genus level, and I can't keep either of them straight. Polypodium something??, and Microsorium something??) which I stuck in with the corn snake mainly because the plant seemed to need more light, and our porch has been too windy, is faring unexpectedly well. It looks delicate, but is springy. I have switched out several pots of both potos and philodendron. Those, always look a bit tired after a few days. I thought they would do better - they did well with the kings. NE Herp sent me a pretty and free begonia I'm not even going try in there - too brittle. The ficus (benjaminica??) currently residing in a hurricane vase in a south facing window should do well, but I'd like to see it get a little taller first. Sansevaria is ordered and on the way. I don't expect any problems with that.

I really like those faux rock magnetic planters. They provide a climbing wall for the serpent, and you can switch the plants out easily.
03-13-2016, 02:17 PM
distaff

One idea I've been kicking around is growing some longer trailing plants on the outside of the enclosure, particularly against the outside of the back wall. Would add visual interest, and a greater perception of depth. The LED is shineing through the glass anyway - might as well make use of it. I don't currently use a lot of light, however, just a single 9 watt Jungle Dawn. I prefer a dappeled effect, and having the other end of the enclosure in shade appears more natural. I have that preference in planted aquariums too. a flat full on light just doesn't look good to me.

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Planning Bioactive - Advice please?