spider x spider article

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Originally Posted by MarkS

While Nick Mutton is rare in the herp trade because he has real scientific training, this piece strikes me more of an opinion based article rather then straight forward fact. If that picture of the alleged super spider is an actual super spider and not just an unfortunate combination with another mutation, then it's the first one I've ever heard of. I'm not saying that he's wrong, but I would have thought that we'd have seen more proof of it by now.

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pairing was a killer bee to a spider according to the person who originally posted the picture.

I think its a little bit of a stretch to say it is the exact same as the jag, I mean a lot of super jags hatch and poke out the egg, then pass. Super spider seems to not even get to that point most of the time. However they are about as similar as it gets cross species. I think there is more compelling things to mention within ball pythons. You basically breed a spider to any morph known to wobble and it either produces a lethal combination or a severe wobble animal. Some of these wobble animals we known produce lethal supers, champagne and HGW.That combined with the fact the spider seems to be the most afflicted within the heterozygous form. Even without hard proof, what would be the logical thing to assume? Super spider being the most afflicted animal out of all the combos wouldn't be that big of a stretch eh?

I don't think there's a way to say it's the exact same gene in two species, considering no one has mapped the genome completely on either species as far as I have found.

I also don't think that he's proven that the dead hatchling was a super spider, because he cannot show a gene study that shows that hatchling had two copies of the spider gene.

I did have a male spider that threw nothing but spider babies, but that doesn't prove he was a super spider. It proved that I had good odds. There were some dead babies that didn't make it out of the egg, but that doesn't mean that they had two copies of the gene and so died because it was lethal, because he wasn't being bred to a female spider either.

I think he has a theory that could be true, but I know that there's a ton of breeders who have bred spiders together and did not report any abnormal numbers of dead eggs. COULD all those breeders be lying? Sure, but what is the profit in that? They would just not pair spiders in the future, so to get the highest number of viable eggs... which they don't do. Breeders still pair spiders(combos) without qualm. So I doubt that breeders "know" that spider/spider = lethal super spider.

Just applying logics, because I have no fancy degree.

honestly Nick has a clean back ground and i never heard anything bad about him. he is a quality breeder and i was personally on the same opinion on the super spider. I was more oriented about an incapacity to absorb the yolk from the super spider as i already saw fe pictures of those none yet colored babies dying in eggs. As i said in another post some big breeders knows it since a very long time and didn t mention it because it s bad for business. Same as they rarely send pictures of adulte animals because their colors are not as impressive as they were hatchlings.

Some people here on the forum want to see for their self so we will know their results. That s cool because i know they won t hide them. I believe Nick being one of the good guys. It will be interesting to have the opinion of the few "clean breeders": Garrick de meyer, Justin Kobylka, Ben Renick....

i just want to add that i only dissagree with Nick when he mention lethal form of leucism. i think the snakes metabolism is very slowed so they didn t color.

So give Nick the credit he deserves because many on this forum can say that he is one of the most qualify breeder out there if not the one.

I don't like the lack of evidence and the fact that he insists he is correct about the super spider being lethal, despite the lack of evidence. He acts as though his hypothesis is a fact, when in my opinion it is not verified.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I don't like the lack of evidence and the fact that he insists he is correct about the super spider being lethal, despite the lack of evidence. He acts as though his hypothesis is a fact, when in my opinion it is not verified.

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There are scatter reports of dead eggs or more than expect slugs, a few white snakes hatching, and correlation with other neuro morphs. I wouldn't say that is a lack of evidence, just not concrete evidence.

I just came across this from a friend sharing it on facebook. Admins/moderators remove if not allowed, though I personally feel this should be Stickied to warn people of the lethal super spider. Which, like the article says, many people claim to not exist.

http://www.herpnation.com/2016/01/20...-super-spider/

there is a big chance that if the egg is from spider x spider that it might of just been deformed by random chance. one egg failing to develop with out all the information on the egg and the snake with in during development isn't conclusive as some have stated. but it has me really thinking about my spider girl and what i would do with her off spring. if i even mention the chance of a deformed or lethal combo to her she freaks out and wants out of breeding all together due to use losing our first child last year. the snakes are her babies or snabies as some have called them and she wants nothing but the best of health for them and their young so i am trying to find out all i can about each of our morphs and their potential offspring.

Though it would be nice if some of the big breeders who do breed spider with spider would necropsy any eggs that don't develop that seemed fertile at laying, and tell us what all they see happening. to the breeder's who do thank you as this information can stop some of us who are doing this as a hobby and are passionate about our snakes to the point of obsession from having heartache.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

There are scatter reports of dead eggs or more than expect slugs, a few white snakes hatching, and correlation with other neuro morphs. I wouldn't say that is a lack of evidence, just not concrete evidence.

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could the white be a sign of another set of white snakes who arnt part of the BeL complex? i mean we have seen spider x BeL non supers and no one has mentioned that i have seen that they all have hatchlings that have one or the other gene every time like say a mystic potion would or a mojave lesser would.

another question should all of the "wabble" genes be considered the same complex?

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Originally Posted by Mada

could the white be a sign of another set of white snakes who arnt part of the BeL complex? i mean we have seen spider x BeL non supers and no one has mentioned that i have seen that they all have hatchlings that have one or the other gene every time like say a mystic potion would or a mojave lesser would.

another question should all of the "wabble" genes be considered the same complex?

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Color doesn't develop until late in incubation, I've had plenty of eggs that died before hatching that contained white or very light colored underdeveloped snakes. I remember one time in particular in a super pastel clutch where one of the eggs didn't hatch with the others so I opened it up and it held an almost fully formed white snake (though on close inspection you could detect a little pattern) that doesn't mean that super pastels are lethal or leucistic.

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Originally Posted by Mada

there is a big chance that if the egg is from spider x spider that it might of just been deformed by random chance. one egg failing to develop with out all the information on the egg and the snake with in during development isn't conclusive as some have stated. but it has me really thinking about my spider girl and what i would do with her off spring. if i even mention the chance of a deformed or lethal combo to her she freaks out and wants out of breeding all together due to use losing our first child last year. the snakes are her babies or snabies as some have called them and she wants nothing but the best of health for them and their young so i am trying to find out all i can about each of our morphs and their potential offspring.

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If the potential of less than ideal babies upsets someone that much, breeding is not for them, any morph, any species, even non reptilian. It is part of reproducing nearly anything living. Even if you do everything in your power to prevent it. It's just something you have to accept, you are in control of very little.

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Originally Posted by Mada

another question should all of the "wabble" genes be considered the same complex?

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No, unless proven to be on the same locus. It's hard to do that when many of them aren't viable.