Poll: UTH, RHP, or RHP+UTH

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Soooooo

I've heard on the grapevine that there may be cause for concern as regards the heating of plastic rub/rubs wether it's UTH or heat /ceramic bulbs!?!?!

The suggestion is ....

Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC which have apparently been linked with Respiratory Tract Infections ( more commonly known as RI ) in snakes and other reptiles ..

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) are extremely hazardous. The EPA explains VOCs, and the dangers they pose to our health. According to the EPA, VOCs cause eye, nose and throat irritation, frequent headaches, nausea, and can also damage the liver, kidney and central nervous system .


Any thoughts , ideas , concerns or information on this topic ??

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My question would be at what temperature does release of VOCs start in the different types of plastics. I’m guessing it’s higher than 90 degrees. Definitely worth looking into.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Soooooo

I've heard on the grapevine that there may be cause for concern as regards the heating of plastic rub/rubs wether it's UTH or heat /ceramic bulbs!?!?!

The suggestion is ....

Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC which have apparently been linked with Respiratory Tract Infections ( more commonly known as RI ) in snakes and other reptiles ..

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) are extremely hazardous. The EPA explains VOCs, and the dangers they pose to our health. According to the EPA, VOCs cause eye, nose and throat irritation, frequent headaches, nausea, and can also damage the liver, kidney and central nervous system .


Any thoughts , ideas , concerns or information on this topic ??

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I'm SO glad you brought that up. I am not a fan of PVC/plastic cages for that very reason- I don't trust the health & safety (mine OR my snakes) to constantly
heated plastics, no matter how "convenient" they may seem to be. Granted, I'm not a BP-keeper either, so glass tanks are very suitable for my snakes (mostly
colubrids) but you can also make glass tanks "work" for BPs/ & boids in general. Even more concerning to me has been the use of plastic storage bins that were
NEVER designed for living creatures (unlike the harder plastic cages) & which off-gas to the extent that is obvious even to me (a mere human) at normal room
temperatures, so I hate to think about enclosed snakes with a far better sense of smell & more importantly, a less-developed immune system & a smaller, more
fragile body, that cannot escape & are "serving a life sentence".

There have been a few threads about snakes obsessed with the air vents in their cages, & while we cannot prove it, it creeps me out on their behalf to think that
this may be what's going on. Many younger members keeping snakes have never lived in a world where plastics aren't literally everywhere, but I prefer to error
on the side of caution. Illnesses like cancer are not usually just a simple exposure but the exposure to more unhealthy things over time...and the more you can
minimize such exposure the better off you are (-not to mention the environment). Call me chicken if you like, but I think someday people will look back on this
era & say "what were you thinking!?" Proof will be a long-time coming though...it's hard enough to get funding for research on human health, let alone snakes.
I think we need to rely on common sense & apply what we do know to come up with the best methods for our non-human friends.

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

My question would be at what temperature does release of VOCs start in the different types of plastics. I’m guessing it’s higher than 90 degrees. Definitely worth looking into...

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Have you ever brought home a plastic storage container? If you & I can smell it, it's off-gassing VOCs. Plastics are pretty much ALL very toxic, & no, you don't have
to go above 90* for this to happen. The softer plastics (like storage bins are made from) are probably the worst, but you have to remember that ALL plastics degrade
over time. The longer they are exposed to heat, the faster that happens. That's why the plastic "food-safe" (HDPE) containers that you microwave some frozen foods
in all say "do NOT re-use"...after one use, they are breaking down & allowing unhealthy chemical exposure in our food. So what do you think happens in a plastic cage
that is heated 24/7?

Those who manufacture plastics want to sell their products to the most people & for the most profits. Don't expect them to release what they most certainly know about
health hazards. :rolleyes: But you might ask who in government they've paid off to look the other way & bury the studies...:rolleyes:

I think typically the talk of VOC's comes into question at VERY high temperatures....beyond what is standard with UTH/Flex or any source of overhead heat. All plastics outgas, just at a different rate and temperature speeds it up. Yeah, PVC is one of the worst ones though....still doesn't stop all the water in a brand new house from flowing to your faucet in a PVC pex line. Doesn't stop the outgassing from a plastic water bottle into your actual water. Doesn't stop outgassing via a tupperware container into your food. You're typing on an injection molded keyboard right now most likely.

You can't escape it.

Personally, I'm not too worried about it however. I'm a toolmaker/cnc programmer...which branches into two main categories: Plastic injection molds and stamping dies.

I know a LOT of mold makers, and I know a lot of injection press operators who are around high temperature melting plastic for 12 hours a day and have done so for 10,20,30 and sometimes even 40 years without any respiratory/health issues whatsoever. OSHA doesn't mess around these days, if there's even a QUESTION as to the health effects of a certain substance....you're wearing a mask of some sorts. Doesn't need to be a conspiracy at every corner, and you can find a million scare articles via Google. ....but everyone is exposed to a boatload of plastic every day that outgasses and so far there are no studies that link exposure to reduced life expectancy of any kind in humans OR animals. Just your typical health scare articles that you can't look away from.

Using plastic water bowls? Plastic plants? Plastic hides?....think of how many plastic items you're sitting near right now. Quite a few.

My experience with PVC enclosures is that an RHP alone is sufficient. I started off with both an RHP and a UTH, both regulated by a Herpstat 2, but eventually found that the UTH never went on. The RHP was doing all the work and created a perfect hot spot on the surface of the substrate.

I live in South Eastern Mass, so the ambient temp in my house can get down as low as 65 F in winter. In fact, just did a few days ago. The PVC enclosures had no issue. There was a slight drop in temp, but it seems to have been temporary because when I looked everything was normal.

Those RHPs from Pro-Panel are excellent. You're going to love it.

I wish I could do tubs with just a UTH, but like I said, my house gets too cold.

Just tied up the vote for the UTH'ers. Go team!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Have you ever brought home a plastic storage container? If you & I can smell it, it's off-gassing VOCs. Plastics are pretty much ALL very toxic, & no, you don't have
to go above 90* for this to happen. The softer plastics (like storage bins are made from) are probably the worst, but you have to remember that ALL plastics degrade
over time. The longer they are exposed to heat, the faster that happens. That's why the plastic "food-safe" (HDPE) containers that you microwave some frozen foods
in all say "do NOT re-use"...after one use, they are breaking down & allowing unhealthy chemical exposure in our food. So what do you think happens in a plastic cage
that is heated 24/7?

Those who manufacture plastics want to sell their products to the most people & for the most profits. Don't expect them to release what they most certainly know about
health hazards. :rolleyes: But you might ask who in government they've paid off to look the other way & bury the studies...:rolleyes:

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I have one rule in life that applies here. I don’t trust anything the government tells me. It’s not a coincidence that with all these “technological advances” we are also seeing cancer rates at higher levels than ever before. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they knew it caused health issues.


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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

I have one rule in life that applies here. I don’t trust anything the government tells me. It’s not a coincidence that with all these “technological advances” we are also seeing cancer rates at higher levels than ever before. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they knew it caused health issues.


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That being said, I use both UTH and RHP in my glass tank and UTH in my rack.


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Originally Posted by KevinK

I think typically the talk of VOC's comes into question at VERY high temperatures....beyond what is standard with UTH/Flex or any source of overhead heat. All plastics outgas, just at a different rate and temperature speeds it up. Yeah, PVC is one of the worst ones though....still doesn't stop all the water in a brand new house from flowing to your faucet in a PVC pex line. Doesn't stop the outgassing from a plastic water bottle into your actual water. Doesn't stop outgassing via a tupperware container into your food. You're typing on an injection molded keyboard right now most likely.

You can't escape it.

Personally, I'm not too worried about it however. I'm a toolmaker/cnc programmer...which branches into two main categories: Plastic injection molds and stamping dies.

I know a LOT of mold makers, and I know a lot of injection press operators who are around high temperature melting plastic for 12 hours a day and have done so for 10,20,30 and sometimes even 40 years without any respiratory/health issues whatsoever. OSHA doesn't mess around these days, if there's even a QUESTION as to the health effects of a certain substance....you're wearing a mask of some sorts. Doesn't need to be a conspiracy at every corner, and you can find a million scare articles via Google. ....but everyone is exposed to a boatload of plastic every day that outgasses and so far there are no studies that link exposure to reduced life expectancy of any kind in humans OR animals. Just your typical health scare articles that you can't look away from.

Using plastic water bowls? Plastic plants? Plastic hides?....think of how many plastic items you're sitting near right now. Quite a few.

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Sooo apparently..

Every plastic mix releases VOCs at differing temps, some may remain inert to the average temps that we use, some may not. Some keepers may use higher temps than others and those that use systems in which have small or large heated areas, thus causing heated spots over that area in contact to or in close proximity to the plastic itself could be at higher risk.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

My question would be at what temperature does release of VOCs start in the different types of plastics. I’m guessing it’s higher than 90 degrees. Definitely worth looking into.


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Sadly .. maybe lower than the temps some of us use ..


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