Let's discuss the "Wobble Head" Neurological disorder ..

Thank you again to all that have participated so far. And now after some others have given their input, I will put a few more cents worth in on my "OPINION"

I'll start with "Inbreeding" as some prefer to call it .... I myself do not believe there is such a thing when it comes to Ball Pythons or even snakes in general for that matter. Line breeding YES .. Inbreeding NO and I'll explain why. .... Snakes are among one of the most simple animals there are, there just is not enough variable between any two or even two hundred ball pythons if you want to stretch it that far. Even compairing morph to morph, no matter which way you cut the cake they all end up the same average size, the same shape, same habitat, the same instincts. The only thing that really varies from one ball to the next is the paint job.

Let me ask this, can you inbreed grasshoppers? How about Alligators?? .... Fish??? ...... In the wild sons breed with mothers, aunts breed with nephews, brothers breed with sister and so on and so on. It happens in the wild more often than it does in captivity. So say in captivity you have a 2012 clutch with one hatchling female (we'll use clown for example purposes) and she is brighter, prettier, and cleaner than any clown you've ever seen so you hold her back. The next year you have a clutch (same male and female as first clutch) and you get a 2013 hatchling male that turns out like the 2012 female so you hold him back as well, then in 2015 you breed those two together and every clown out of their clutch looks as stunning and awesome and different as the '12 and '13 did. So you hold them back because no one else has produced anything like them ... So you breed them out another two seasons or so and prove this new line out. So now you name it Clown (Snicker-Doodle Line), and it is the cleanest and best looking Clown "LINE" produced to date. But when trying to cross breed out one of your Clown (Snicker-Doodle Line) to a plain ol' clown ... They are non-compatible with any other clown other than their own awesome snicker-doodle self....... Now what?? Do you just give up on this wicked cool looking clown line that you discovered because it can only be bred to one of it's own to get the visual awesomeness?? HELL NO YOU DON'T ... You are going to breed all the siblings to each other and get as many of them as you can and you are going to sell them for $10,000 a piece for two or three years until enough of your new line is out that other ppl are selling them now and the price finally falls to average high end morph prices. .... Now keep in mind that there is no genetic defects in this snicker-doodle line of yours and it is fully proven out. Behold ... "Line Breeding"

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Originally Posted by T_Sauer

Now keep in mind that there is no genetic defects in this snicker-doodle line of yours and it is fully proven out. Behold ... "Line Breeding"

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But...Aren't morphs just snakes with genetic defects, to begin with? Isn't that why they're so rare/expensive, because they're abnormal? So I would assume that somewhere down the line, those abnormalities would just be enhanced, both positive and negative. With that being said, where do you draw the line? How far are you willing to manipulate genetics for the sake of producing a world first? Because let's be for real here, these snakes are being genetically modified for profit, otherwise they would be the same price as a normal and not $10,000, like you mentioned. I personally don't have anything against morphs. But everybody and their momma are getting into breeding, and I just hope it's for the love of the animal. Quality of life shouldn't take a backseat to profit.

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Originally Posted by Deluge

But...Aren't morphs just snakes with genetic defects, to begin with? Isn't that why they're so rare/expensive, because they're abnormal? So I would assume that somewhere down the line, those abnormalities would just be enhanced, both positive and negative. With that being said, where do you draw the line? How far are you willing to manipulate genetics for the sake of producing a world first? Because let's be for real here, these snakes are being genetically modified for profit, otherwise they would be the same price as a normal and not $10,000, like you mentioned. I personally don't have anything against morphs. But everybody and their momma are getting into breeding, and I just hope it's for the love of the animal. Quality of life shouldn't take a backseat to profit.

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Your not reading into your own words, or you just have taken absolutely no time to try and learn about ball python morphs and genetics.

Besides the fact that there are over 3,600 ball python morphs and there are less than a dozen genetic defects only about 3 that are actually common ....... I would say those are awesome odds.

Like I said above, "Its all about the paint job". Size, shape, weight, everything physical about every single ball python morph is exactly the same .... Once you get underneath those scales they are all the same. It all has to do with the color pigment in their scales.

IF, they were in the wild and we tinkered with their color and natural ability to blend into their environment then yes that could be detrimental to their survival. However we are talking about captive ball pythons, they have no gain or loss nor worry about if they are neon purple or neon green.

So, no .. quality of life does not take a back seat to profit. The defects that we are speaking of, happen in the wild as well and they adapt and over come or nature takes it's course.

Some are rare and expensive because it takes a lot of time studying and researching and PLENTY of money so that you can do it properly to ensure a good quality of life for the animal.

Everybody and their momma "SAY" that they are getting into breeding..... When in reality, Once they find out how much goes into it, or try without doing their research and fail, they turn into ball python collectors rather quickly ..... The success rate of ball python breeders that actually make money doing this, is comparable the the success rate of navy seal buds training. Most are lucky to break even.

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Originally Posted by T_Sauer

Thank you again to all that have participated so far. And now after some others have given their input, I will put a few more cents worth in on my "OPINION"

I'll start with "Inbreeding" as some prefer to call it .... I myself do not believe there is such a thing when it comes to Ball Pythons or even snakes in general for that matter. Line breeding YES .. Inbreeding NO and I'll explain why. .... Snakes are among one of the most simple animals there are, there just is not enough variable between any two or even two hundred ball pythons if you want to stretch it that far. Even compairing morph to morph, no matter which way you cut the cake they all end up the same average size, the same shape, same habitat, the same instincts. The only thing that really varies from one ball to the next is the paint job.

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Try convincing Drymarchon enthusiasts that there's no such thing as inbreeding. Scale abnormalities start cropping up the first generation of pairing siblings or parent to young.

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Originally Posted by T_Sauer

Let me ask this, can you inbreed grasshoppers? How about Alligators?? .... Fish??? ......

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Yes, yes, yes. Hell, even roach colonies can only take so much inbreeding before production dwindles and you need to bring in new blood for a boost. The effects vary from species to species but everything I know of has a limit to the amount of inbreeding it can take before adversely affected. In some cases you can breed through it and get back to strong, healthy animals but don't expect a walk in the park, or even necessarily success, if going this route.

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Originally Posted by T_Sauer

In the wild sons breed with mothers, aunts breed with nephews, brothers breed with sister and so on and so on. It happens in the wild more often than it does in captivity.

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You forgot the most important part. Only animals strong enough to survive to adulthood even get a chance to pass on their genes. When weak young are produced in the wild they are naturally culled.

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Originally Posted by T_Sauer

So say in captivity you have a 2012 clutch with one hatchling female (we'll use clown for example purposes) and she is brighter, prettier, and cleaner than any clown you've ever seen so you hold her back. The next year you have a clutch (same male and female as first clutch) and you get a 2013 hatchling male that turns out like the 2012 female so you hold him back as well, then in 2015 you breed those two together and every clown out of their clutch looks as stunning and awesome and different as the '12 and '13 did. So you hold them back because no one else has produced anything like them ... So you breed them out another two seasons or so and prove this new line out. So now you name it Clown (Snicker-Doodle Line), and it is the cleanest and best looking Clown "LINE" produced to date. But when trying to cross breed out one of your Clown (Snicker-Doodle Line) to a plain ol' clown ... They are non-compatible with any other clown other than their own awesome snicker-doodle self....... Now what?? Do you just give up on this wicked cool looking clown line that you discovered because it can only be bred to one of it's own to get the visual awesomeness?? HELL NO YOU DON'T ... You are going to breed all the siblings to each other and get as many of them as you can and you are going to sell them for $10,000 a piece for two or three years until enough of your new line is out that other ppl are selling them now and the price finally falls to average high end morph prices. .... Now keep in mind that there is no genetic defects in this snicker-doodle line of yours and it is fully proven out. Behold ... "Line Breeding"

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Outcrossing is a beautiful thing and I think most responsible breeders put it into practice as early as possible in new projects.

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Originally Posted by T_Sauer

Thank you again to all that have participated so far. And now after some others have given their input, I will put a few more cents worth in on my "OPINION"

I'll start with "Inbreeding" as some prefer to call it .... I myself do not believe there is such a thing when it comes to Ball Pythons or even snakes in general for that matter. Line breeding YES .. Inbreeding NO and I'll explain why. .... Snakes are among one of the most simple animals there are, there just is not enough variable between any two or even two hundred ball pythons if you want to stretch it that far. Even compairing morph to morph, no matter which way you cut the cake they all end up the same average size, the same shape, same habitat, the same instincts. The only thing that really varies from one ball to the next is the paint job.

Let me ask this, can you inbreed grasshoppers? How about Alligators?? .... Fish??? ...... In the wild sons breed with mothers, aunts breed with nephews, brothers breed with sister and so on and so on. It happens in the wild more often than it does in captivity. So say in captivity you have a 2012 clutch with one hatchling female (we'll use clown for example purposes) and she is brighter, prettier, and cleaner than any clown you've ever seen so you hold her back. The next year you have a clutch (same male and female as first clutch) and you get a 2013 hatchling male that turns out like the 2012 female so you hold him back as well, then in 2015 you breed those two together and every clown out of their clutch looks as stunning and awesome and different as the '12 and '13 did. So you hold them back because no one else has produced anything like them ... So you breed them out another two seasons or so and prove this new line out. So now you name it Clown (Snicker-Doodle Line), and it is the cleanest and best looking Clown "LINE" produced to date. But when trying to cross breed out one of your Clown (Snicker-Doodle Line) to a plain ol' clown ... They are non-compatible with any other clown other than their own awesome snicker-doodle self....... Now what?? Do you just give up on this wicked cool looking clown line that you discovered because it can only be bred to one of it's own to get the visual awesomeness?? HELL NO YOU DON'T ... You are going to breed all the siblings to each other and get as many of them as you can and you are going to sell them for $10,000 a piece for two or three years until enough of your new line is out that other ppl are selling them now and the price finally falls to average high end morph prices. .... Now keep in mind that there is no genetic defects in this snicker-doodle line of yours and it is fully proven out. Behold ... "Line Breeding"

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Inbreeding is very possible with snakes, but not a point to be made in this particular discussion. As has already been said by numerous people (including myself) inbreeding is simply not a factor in this particular genetic disorder. By the by in your example you would still not breed offspring to parent or sibling to sibling unto oblivion, you would combine it with other genes to make new combos (outbreeding) therefore giving your "new morph" the genetic diversity needed to stop the slow descent into missing eyes and deformed jaws. Inbreeding does have an effect on every species of animal in existence, it's only a matter of how long until it becomes noticeable.

Just wanted to add my thoughts on this. This is a known problem that breeders continue to ignore, either for their own love of pretty colors, or money and time invested in snakes with the spider gene that they don't want to waste. Either way, its purely selfish to continue breeding them. If this offends half of the people on this forum, too bad. This forum is filled with threads and discussions of the neurological disorder(s) that come with the spider gene. The level of willful ignorance displayed by breeders in this hobby is despicable. It's simple logic folks. It shouldn't have to be explained to you. This is what happens when simple, greedy minds exercise control of a species gene pool. The consequences will be tragic to the species and this hobby.

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Originally Posted by Waylon

Just wanted to add my thoughts on this. This is a known problem that breeders continue to ignore, either for their own love of pretty colors, or money and time invested in snakes with the spider gene that they don't want to waste. Either way, its purely selfish to continue breeding them. If this offends half of the people on this forum, too bad. This forum is filled with threads and discussions of the neurological disorder(s) that come with the spider gene. The level of willful ignorance displayed by breeders in this hobby is despicable. It's simple logic folks. It shouldn't have to be explained to you. This is what happens when simple, greedy minds exercise control of a species gene pool. The consequences will be tragic to the species and this hobby.

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So if people thought something was wrong with morphs because they look different, should we stop breeding them also? Many of us will think the ignorance might be on your part. BTW the motivation is no longer money, if that was the case, spider is bottom on the barrel as far as prices go.