Why do most people frown upon the production of Burm/Balls?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Well, in the case of people who are fans of morphs - because the concept of irony is foreign to them.

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That's a crock, there is a HUGE difference between hybridising two different species and perpetuating a naturally occuring mutation.

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Originally Posted by nucklehead97

But, jhill001 couldn't you get the ball python morphs and then breed out the ball python genes so essentially you do have a coral glow burmese python? And that was an example I was by no means trying to pass it off as a pure burm and this is all hypothetical as of now. I am extremely interested in the hybrids abd would like to see what can be done with them. I also agree with the point you made about the politician in that we don't need balls being added to the lacey act too. Also Thank you for your input I appreciate it.

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There is no way you can 'breed out' the ball python genes, there are millions of genes involved in the creation of an individual. Once you've crossed two different species any offspring will always have genes from both species no matter how may times you may breed back to one of the parent species. Once a hybrid, always a hybrid.

Okay thank you

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

The same reasons I frown on all hybrids.

2. Diamond Pythons and Sinaloan Milk snakes are two species practically lost to the hobby because of hybridization that I can think of off-hand. One is so ridiculously expensive that it is basically lost, the other is indistinguishable from nelson's milksnakes and only "shows" as a Sinaloan because of line breeding efforts with no one able to trace lineage back to the true species.

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Diamond python prices are on par with that of some ball morphs -- and have done a much better job of staying the same -- people buy the BPs. (I say that as someone intent on getting diamonds after I create the correct space for them). But, yeah, I have to agree otherwise. Most of the carpet complex now takes a a couple minutes of homework to find a pure animal, some more than others. I'm afraid of the same thing happening with the Antaresia pythons.

Other than that, everyone's kinda said anything I could say here for me.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

That's a crock, there is a HUGE difference between hybridising two different species and perpetuating a naturally occuring mutation.

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Crock?

No.

Using the argument that somehow hybridizing two species is a sin against nature, or that it has measurable implications beyond the home vivarium is a crock.

A healthy hybrid is no more taboo than line breeding color morphs in any species that have known defects - ie: the spider wobble. Or selectively breeding animals for aesthetics with no regards to health. That practice sucks whether it's a duck-billed wobbling ball python noodle or an English bulldog that cannot breathe, mate or deliver pups without a C-section.

Both hybridization and selectively breeding for looks are decisions that are made for aesthetic reasons, and in MOST cases, without regards to health. Hence the irony.

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

The same reasons I frown on all hybrids.

I have other reasons based in my desire to keep lines clean because if I buy something I want it to be that specific species because of the natural history aspect of it.

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You do realize that squamate hybrids occur in nature? So how does that fit into the whole "natural history"
aspect?

Let's start with:

Pituophis Catenifer Sayi X Pantherophis Vulpinis

Crotalus Horridus X Sisturus Catenatus

Are we frowning on those as well?

Unfortunately, I cannot find any scientific evidence supporting snakes of the same species with known physiological abnormalities breeding (in the wild) with the sole purpose of creating aesthetically pleasing and financially profitable offspring.

Well, I voted towards the negative here, but that is JUST FOR ME. I don't care to own or produce any hybrids if I can avoid it. If someone else wants to, I have no issue with it. Bjt it's just not me, and all my reasons have already been mentioned by others. I think it really come down to a personal choice, and I try to respect others choices. Even if I don't agree with them.

I think it would be neat to own certain hybrids at pets only. I don't have any interest in breeding the hybrids myself and would never sell them. The hard part would be purchasing them from the breeder, as from what I understand, most don't want to sell for fear of the buyer breeding and muddying gene pools.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Crock?

No.

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Crock, yes. Crossing two distinct species from completely different parts of the world that have completely different habitats is in no way even remotely similar to perpetuating naturally occuring mutations

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Using the argument that somehow hybridizing two species is a sin against nature, or that it has measurable implications beyond the home vivarium is a crock.

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Using the term 'sin against nature' is a little too melodramatic for me. And NONE of the snakes we produce have ANY implications beyond the home vivarium. I don't care if you are some kind of Dr Frankenstein intent on crossing anacondas with sand boas, or if you're the most pure locality specific hobbyist around. NONE of the snakes that we produce in captivity will ever be candidates for re-release into the wild. All of them will be going to other hobbyists, collectors or pet fanciers and for the most part, those hobbyists, collectors or pet fanciers are going to want to know what they are getting, not just what it LOOKS like they are getting.

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A healthy hybrid is no more taboo than line breeding color morphs in any species that have known defects - ie: the spider wobble. Or selectively breeding animals for aesthetics with no regards to health. That practice sucks whether it's a duck-billed wobbling ball python noodle or an English bulldog that cannot breathe, mate or deliver pups without a C-section.

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A healthy Hybrid, doesn't always LOOK like a hybrid. I've been burned before when buying a pair of 'interesting' looking pine snakes. They looked similar to each other but when breeding them together, none of the babies looked like any of their other littermates. It was then easy to tell that the parents were actually Pine Snake X Bull Snake Hybrids. The sky didn't fall, the earth didn't buckle under my feet and nobody got seriously hurt. The only bad thing to happen was that I just wasted three years of my time raising a couple of snakes for a dead end project. Yes I was a little angry about that, but what the heck, it's only time right?

This is why I don't like hybrids. Like I stated in a previous post, no matter how often your cross the hybrid back to one of the parent species, you will never rid yourself of all the genes of the other species they will ALWAYS be hybrids. Even if they look identical to one of the parent species, they will still contain genes from the other parent species which could throw off any future breeding results.

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Both hybridization and selectively breeding for looks are decisions that are made for aesthetic reasons, and in MOST cases, without regards to health. Hence the irony.

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ALL captive breeding is done for aesthetic reasons. Even the locality specific people will cross their best specimen with their 2nd best specimen. All breeding is done selectively whether the breeder is choosing to breed purely for looks or if they choose to breed for another trait like calm demeanor or good feeding response. Unless the snakes themselves are doing the choosing, it's the keeper making the decision according to his/her wishes NOT natural selection.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Crock, yes. Crossing two distinct species from completely different parts of the world that have completely different habitats is in no way even remotely similar to perpetuating naturally occuring mutations

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Crock no. Are you then OK with hybridizing two distinct species that come from the SAME part of the world with similar habitats? Nature does that. Do we have an issue with that? Or are we talking about select hybrids? Are you against ALL hybrids or just some.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Using the term 'sin against nature' is a little too melodramatic for me. And NONE of the snakes we produce have ANY implications beyond the home vivarium. I don't care if you are some kind of Dr Frankenstein intent on crossing anacondas with sand boas, or if you're the most pure locality specific hobbyist around. NONE of the snakes that we produce in captivity will ever be candidates for re-release into the wild. All of them will be going to other hobbyists, collectors or pet fanciers and for the most part, those hobbyists, collectors or pet fanciers are going to want to know what they are getting, not just what it LOOKS like they are getting.

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We're not talking about you...we are talking about the most common knee jerk reactions to hybridization - nature doesn't want it and Oh MY God, what happens if they escape? That's a fallacy, and most people who argue that point don't have the slightest clue that hybridization happens naturally.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

This is why I don't like hybrids. Like I stated in a previous post, no matter how often your cross the hybrid back to one of the parent species, you will never rid yourself of all the genes of the other species they will ALWAYS be hybrids. Even if they look identical to one of the parent species, they will still contain genes from the other parent species which could throw off any future breeding results.

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I don't buy hybrids. I don't breed hybrids. Don't have a problems with people that do. However, if all of the human deceit was taken out of the equation, do you have any moral objections to producing a hybrid and marketing it for what it is?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

ALL captive breeding is done for aesthetic reasons. Even the locality specific people will cross their best specimen with their 2nd best specimen. All breeding is done selectively whether the breeder is choosing to breed purely for looks or if they choose to breed for another trait like calm demeanor or good feeding response. Unless the snakes themselves are doing the choosing, it's the keeper making the decision according to his/her wishes NOT natural selection.

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Untrue. Some people breed their healthiest most robust specimens. Many people breed their prettiest specimens. Some of the best people in this hobby breed healthy and vigorous animals and pay no attention to the paint job. When you get outside the world of morphs and outside the world of fancy artwork, the whole concept of aesthetics becomes less and less italicized.

I can take pictures of 6 rhamphiophis rubropunctatus and I bet you that the aesthetic differences between each animal are so minute that they are immaterial and no one would be able to discern them. Now take 5 black pastels and ask people to rank them. Is the healthiest animal going to be the prettiest, or the ugliest?