Planning on first pairing: Opinions on conformation?

Hey I've seen you on RatForum, lol.

Fraido- Yep... just don't tell anyone there my dirty little secret (that I'm going to be breeding my rats... on purpose) lol. The breeder forum here has excellent advice and mods and isn't anti-breeding. It's nice to post on a lower-key site. The people on RF can give good advice too, but can sometimes be a little fanatical in their beliefs on certain topics. :P

They certainly can! I love rats, but I love snakes too. It creates much hate (most of the time) on forums just for rats. The people on RF are just very passionate, lol.

I know. And I respect their feelings, hence not posting anything snake-related there or mentioning breeding. I just wish they would encourage "good" breeding more. That would stop a lot of their woes about people always buying from a pet store. When you have no other options, you have to buy from a pet store. I get them not liking feeder breeders, but I think encouraging good rat breeding would help their cause rather than hurt it.

I agree.


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Okay so this it totally, completely ignorant on my end, but I did not know breeding rats was such a big thing, if that's the right way to describe it - like, I didn't know they were bred for showing and conformation and whatnot. I know with horses breeding is a huge topic with tons of variables (conformation, temperment, color, show history, all the same things) and talking about breeding horses with other horse people is guaranteed to start a trainwreck... I did not think that would apply to rats! I guess I figured they're rats, you know? how much can there be in it? It's stupid, I know, and again it's very ignorant on my end!

This thread is very interesting, though! I didn't know rat conformation was a thing. What do you do in rat shows? What do you show in, what are the categories? Can you post an example of a conformationally correct rat? I don't plan on buying or breeding them but I'm interested!

Spoons- I've never shown my rats, and am just starting out breeding, so I'm not the one to ask. There are a couple members on here with extensive rat showing experience and they would be the better parties to answer your questions. You can also do a search for rat / mouse clubs (I know AFRMA is one) and most have pics of colors and standards. Most of the standards have to do with good structural traits (large well shaped heads, good sized eyes, thick bone mass so they aren't prone to breakage) and traits that separate rats from looking like mice... Anything thin, pointy, etc. is usually bad. I want to focus on good conformation for the health benefits (better vision and breathing, rats that can birth easily, etc.) and on good temperment as well. Although color and markings are a fun aspect for me, they are not as important.

From what I gather, the "pet" rat community (much like the pet guinea pig community) online is very anti-breeding. They see people turning over their GPs / rats to shelters and say that everyone should adopt and not dare breed their own because they assume that you will breed unhealthy rats / GPs and/or not find homes for the babies resulting in more rodents in rescue, etc. If you look at the forum rules for RF it explicitly says that you aren't allowed to even mention breeding. Apparently the show rats community has others issues. For them (from what I've heard) it's only ok to breed if you have goals and morals that line up with theirs and it is a very closed community. As I said they say that all GOOD breeders will make you sign a no breeding contract if you buy from them.

I for one, am very glad of the experienced breeders willing to post on this stie and help out newbies like me. :)

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Originally Posted by artgecko

Fraido- Yep... just don't tell anyone there my dirty little secret (that I'm going to be breeding my rats... on purpose) lol. The breeder forum here has excellent advice and mods and isn't anti-breeding. It's nice to post on a lower-key site. The people on RF can give good advice too, but can sometimes be a little fanatical in their beliefs on certain topics. :P

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Um yeah, I know that feeling... I'm waiting from some fall back on my own head. :P
Since I use the same username here as I have on rat forums (dumb if I were trying to keep everything a big secret), and I was quite well known in the rat circles, its really only a matter of time. I've pretty much left the rat communities to avoid the black listing that will come sooner or later. Or maybe it already has and I just don't know it! lol

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Originally Posted by Spoons

Okay so this it totally, completely ignorant on my end, but I did not know breeding rats was such a big thing, if that's the right way to describe it - like, I didn't know they were bred for showing and conformation and whatnot. I know with horses breeding is a huge topic with tons of variables (conformation, temperment, color, show history, all the same things) and talking about breeding horses with other horse people is guaranteed to start a trainwreck... I did not think that would apply to rats! I guess I figured they're rats, you know? how much can there be in it? It's stupid, I know, and again it's very ignorant on my end!

This thread is very interesting, though! I didn't know rat conformation was a thing. What do you do in rat shows? What do you show in, what are the categories? Can you post an example of a conformationally correct rat? I don't plan on buying or breeding them but I'm interested!

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Rat shows are quite similar to other small animal shows, i.e. rabbits, guinea pigs, chickens. Some clubs have classes other than conformation, but I'll start with the conformation....

In a conformation class, the rat is (supposed to be) judged primarily on conformation. The judge looks at how the rat is put together, its bone structure, soft tissue structure, how it moves, etc. The rat that conforms most closely to the prescribed standards gets the most points. After conformation, then other traits are considered: color, markings, fur, whatever else they have these days. Those traits are also judged on the standard: hairless are ideally completely naked without fuzz even, rex ideally have tightly curled fur and whiskers, black rats are ideally pure pitch black with no brownness, dinginess, or silvering, etc. It all depends on what color, fur, and body (dumbo, manx) category each rat falls into.

Now, some clubs have other classes. For example, "most lickiest", "most friendly", "most cuddly", whatever. These cutesy classes are very subjective, and basically judged on a whim. They are meant for fun only.

AFRMA (which really only has shows in Southern California) also has a couple other classes: kitten class, progeny class, etc. These are judged on conformation, but also look at a few other things. The progeny class, for example, looks at the improvement over the generations, as well as consistency. AFRMA also has a couple "non-standard" classes, like "British", any rat or mouse entered into that class must be 100% British bloodlines (basically imported stock). I am not aware of other US clubs that have these same classes, but AFRMA is also one of the longest standing clubs in the US (founded in 1984). Shows in the UK might be a little different, their organization (NFRS) is even older.

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Originally Posted by artgecko

From what I gather, the "pet" rat community (much like the pet guinea pig community) online is very anti-breeding. They see people turning over their GPs / rats to shelters and say that everyone should adopt and not dare breed their own because they assume that you will breed unhealthy rats / GPs and/or not find homes for the babies resulting in more rodents in rescue, etc. If you look at the forum rules for RF it explicitly says that you aren't allowed to even mention breeding. Apparently the show rats community has others issues. For them (from what I've heard) it's only ok to breed if you have goals and morals that line up with theirs and it is a very closed community. As I said they say that all GOOD breeders will make you sign a no breeding contract if you buy from them.

I for one, am very glad of the experienced breeders willing to post on this stie and help out newbies like me. :)

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Its very much like the dog/cat world. You have your rescue people who see the evils of society, with all the dogs and cats turned over and euthanized in shelters, and think that any and all breeding is bad. Then you have your show people who breed for ribbons, and think everyone else should do the same (and ideally health testing, etc is added to the breeding mix, which we don't exactly have in rats). And then you have those in between: The "backyard breeders" who don't necessarily know what they are doing and/or have been ostracized from the rest of the community because they don't follow all the guidelines everyone else believes they should adhere to (this is basically what the rest of the rat community calls us feeder breeders), and in the dog world you also have the working dog breeders who breed their dogs not for show, but for a purpose (the show and rescue people in the dog community might call those breeders "backyard breeders" too, depending on exactly what the person is doing). Feeder breeders can consider themselves as breeding for a purpose, but the rest of the rat community still considers us "backyard breeders" regardless how exactly we go about our business. They prescribe the same stereotypes to all of us, and don't care to get to know any of us enough to see how we really operate. Part of it is, they can't come to terms with the fact that the species their beloved pet belongs to actually is a food animal (pet pot bellied pig vs bacon?).

I've been on all sides of the rat community. Just throwing that out there. They would probably hate me now because I'm breeding rats for food.

that's really neat. All stuff I didn't know. I have some knowledge of breeding dogs (not because I do so myself, rather because it's hard NOT to in today's world) and I own a horse, so I get all the breeding talk there too. It seems that it's pretty universal about the general populus looking at breeding as being a horrible nasty thing that nobody should ever do unles your horseis the picture perfect example of its breed (very rare) AND has happened to win 4000000 shows (getting forst of course) and have the most placid dog temperment, and of course it has to be registered with award winning show horses in all of its lineage, and even then they have an anti vibe at you. All for similar reasons- there's so many horses in slaughter and in rescues that it's considered irresponsible to breed.

Which is of course silly. If everybody stopped breeding we'd have no more horses, or dogs, or what have you. Obviously I think it should be regulated and reined in a bit, I don't think just anybody should pump out baby animals, but I generally avoid breeding discussion, lol. I was actually a bit shocked when I came around here and everybody talked about breeding snakes like it's no big thing.

All very interesting! I will have to go look up more about rats now. I wanted a rat when I was younger, and though I likely won't buy any now, I am still fond of them!

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Originally Posted by Spoons

that's really neat. All stuff I didn't know. I have some knowledge of breeding dogs (not because I do so myself, rather because it's hard NOT to in today's world) and I own a horse, so I get all the breeding talk there too. It seems that it's pretty universal about the general populus looking at breeding as being a horrible nasty thing that nobody should ever do unles your horseis the picture perfect example of its breed (very rare) AND has happened to win 4000000 shows (getting forst of course) and have the most placid dog temperment, and of course it has to be registered with award winning show horses in all of its lineage, and even then they have an anti vibe at you. All for similar reasons- there's so many horses in slaughter and in rescues that it's considered irresponsible to breed.

Which is of course silly. If everybody stopped breeding we'd have no more horses, or dogs, or what have you. Obviously I think it should be regulated and reined in a bit, I don't think just anybody should pump out baby animals, but I generally avoid breeding discussion, lol. I was actually a bit shocked when I came around here and everybody talked about breeding snakes like it's no big thing.

All very interesting! I will have to go look up more about rats now. I wanted a rat when I was younger, and though I likely won't buy any now, I am still fond of them!

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I agree! I too was quite shocked when I started going onto these snake groups, and saw everyone talk about breeding. I was like, "Whoa! This is culture shock!" lol

I too have horses, and dogs, and so much else! lol I do think breeding is important, but I also think there should be purpose behind it, beyond strictly making money that is. I think there should be goals, whether it is a more aesthetically pleasing animal (as is the case with our snakes - though I think temperament and health, i.e. feeding response, should also be considered), a food/production animal, or an animal that actually performs a job. I have no interest in breeding dogs or horses, way too much money going into that! But I did used to work at an Arabian horse breeding stable. In fact, one of my two horses came from that breeder, and he's an amazing animal! 70-something% Crabbet bloodlines, wonderful temperament and personality, nice build, and pretty much a good all-around horse. He doesn't have any show titles, not because he isn't good enough, but because I simply haven't put the time and effort into showing him (no time, not enough money, little desire). Sometimes I'm kind of sad i had him gelded, because he is such a wonderful horse, all around, but I am happy I did because all good stallions make great geldings! ;)

I have a dog who may very well be purebred Dutch Shepherd, but was adopted from a shelter (he was picked up as an unneutered stray). He's neutered now, but shows a lot of that working driving. I think that's an important part of dog breeding - breeding for a purpose, and for some breeds, breeding that working ability and drive. Some breeds I think really shouldn't exist (i.e. those who can't breed or birth naturally), and I think its sad how some breeds are so different now than they were decades or centuries ago because of shows. But that's neither here nor there, and not something I'm involved in either way.

I AM breeding goats. I have dairy goats, and of course to produce milk you need babies! My buck isn't registered, though possibly purebred. For my purposes, that may not really matter, because the babies I produce can double as market animals. I'm going to wait to see how this first set of babies comes out, but I'm seriously considering getting him neutered, then putting some money into a good quality registered buck (whether it be the same breed as my does, or a meat breed from which I can produce market babies, or one of both!). My doe is registered, and I'm looking at purchasing a second registerable doe. I feel that if I'm going to be breeding these animals, there needs to be purpose behind them, because where I live, pet goats really aren't a huge thing. I'm ok with making market babies that will be made into meat - they still have a purpose and won't go to waste. I'm also ok with producing good quality does who can in turn be used to produce more milk. And if I find a pet buyer, I'm ok with that too. I just want to make sure each and every baby has a purpose and place to go, and doesn't just end up a random casualty of the mass producing, impulsive world we live in.

I guess that's a little bit of a tangent, but just wanted to say I agree. :)