New "Dr K Exotic Vet" show

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I disagree, I absolutely believe domestication has a big part in how well an animal does in a home setting. That was the whole purpose of domestication. We can keep a dog much easier and happier with us than a wolf, because they are a domesticated species.

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You left a giant piece of important information out of your statement, how is this wolf cared or in captivity? Wouldn't you say that a pet wolf with a large outdoor run and a knowledgeable owner would be 'happier' than an impulsively bought 'pocket pooch' that is routinely abandoned and ignored?

You don't keep an animal in such a way that it is not meant to be kept. You don't keep a horse in a living room, they belong outside with plenty of space. Similarly, you don't keep active exotic pets in small spaces, you give them the proper outdoor run. Horses are domesticated, yet we know that it would be cruel to coop them up. Why are you viewing a wolf or zebra differently? Zebras are skittish but to my knowledge, they do well in captivity, living longer than their wild counterparts for obvious reasons and they are far more relaxed in the same way our ball pythons are more tame than wild ball pythons. I would guess that the zebra is 'happy' in the RIGHT care, just expect a more difficult time riding them. This same exact rule goes for dogs.

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Cats are easier than cougars.

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Because cougars are dangerous. Shrink them to the size of a cat and your statement probably wouldn't be true. It's not domestication, it's the fact that the animal is potentially deadly.

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I used to know all the "points" or factors that make animals a good domestication candidate, as not all animals fit, but I sadly don't remember

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Flexible dietary needs, lowered 'flight level', and that they reproduce well in captivity. But domestication is a mostly useless word that only describes animals that are modified genetically to suit a human use. For instance, cows can be 'domesticated' to suit our needs in a factory farm, but that doesn't mean a factory farm is a good environment for them. Domesticated minks are terrible candidates for typical captivity yet they survive and fit the human use that is fur farming. Domestication has little or nothing to do with animal welfare.

I firmly believe that a wolf cared for in captivity even with a big run and knowledgeable owner would not be as happy as an impulsively bought pocket pooch. A wolf needs a pack, a wolf wants acres to run, they roam and hunt and are very social. You can replicate that as best you can, but it won't be the same as the wild. A pocket pooch has been bred and domesticated to be perfectly happy living in a human world with easier needs.

yes, animals like zebras will be happy with the RIGHT care. That's what I'm getting at - their care is more difficult and special, so they very often do not receive the "RIGHT" care. Domestication has little to do with animal welfare save for the level of care they require. Undomesticated generally need more specialized care. Yes they can be perfectly happy if they get that care. IF. It's not a huge part, but it's an important part. Exotic animals can live very happy and full lives in captivity, I'm not saying they can't, just that an exotic bought impulsively is going to suffer far greater than a dog or cat. A person who buys a cockatoo is going to have more problems with the bird than a person who goes out to buy a cat. A person who buys a hedgehog is going to have more trouble than someone with a hamster. Because when it comes down to it, in general the needs of the exotics are greater to keep them happy in a human environment.

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I firmly believe that a wolf cared for in captivity even with a big run and knowledgeable owner would not be as happy as an impulsively bought pocket pooch. A wolf needs a pack, a wolf wants acres to run, they roam and hunt and are very social. You can replicate that as best you can, but it won't be the same as the wild. A pocket pooch has been bred and domesticated to be perfectly happy living in a human world with easier needs.

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I am willing to admit that I don't know indefinitely which animal is better off, but I am 100% confident that the idea of an animal being bred "to be perfectly happy living in a human world" is completely unfounded.

One trait that is consistent among most domesticated animals is lowered stress levels, so it's not that they are 'bred to be perfectly happy with humans', it's that they are bred to be 'perfectly happy', period. Non-domesticated animals generally have higher stress levels, in and out of the wild. You have to get a grasp on what is actually occurring when an animal is selectively bred. Traits are being selected for that make animals better pets for us, but that doesn't negate their basic needs. That means we like traits such as good bathroom habits (no spraying), increased cooperation with humans, and overall ease of care. Because many people think like you, domesticated cats are sometimes neglected. They are actually quite demanding when not let outside (letting them outside is completely unethical by the way). They often suffer from similar cases that poorly cared for wild animals do. People tend to not notice because they believe the myth that a cat has been bred to persevere inside a house. It simply isn't true. Dogs do very well because they get what most other animals don't; access to the outdoors and walks, plenty of interaction, and ect. Wild animals thrive when they get this (catered to their species-specific needs).

You said wolves are social. Are dogs any less social? Of course not. I see ample evidence that dogs do experience distress when their owners leave. They are not 'genetically selected' to deal with this, but they do. Wolves do not need to run for acres. Let dogs return to the wild, they will probably run for acres too. That doesn't mean they need to. Wild animals travel long distances because they need to in order to survive. We already know that cats travel much further than a house will permit. A cat is domesticated. Horses will often travel further than the space many of them are kept in. Horses are domesticated. Feral goats will travel further, they are domesticated. Don't you see? What is the difference? If what you said were true, the keeping of ball pythons in anything smaller than a realistically designed 1/2 acre enclosure would be cruel.

"Because so many people think like you, domestic cats get neglected" - I'm sorry, what exactly is it you're insinuating here? That I treat my animals poorly? I work rehabilitating wildlife, I know more about animals than a significant portion of the population, and I damn sure take care of mine properly. You have nothing to go on as to how my animals are kept. Nowhere in my post did I say keeping animals in anything less than a replica of their outdoor natural living space is cruel. Yes, animals have been selectively bred to be perfectly happy period. For us. They're bred to have lower stress levels so they can be happier with humans. For us. And I'm not sure where you are thinking I'm saying we're negating their basic needs. I'm saying that different animals - exotics vs. animals considered non-exotics - have different basic needs. Some have more than others. As it stands I believe we are pushing two separate points.

I don't think I wish to continue the discussion with you. That's my opinion on the matter, that is where I stand, and I don't care to go on with someone who is insinuating about the care (or assumed lack thereof) of my animals.

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I'm sorry, what exactly is it you're insinuating here? That I treat my animals poorly?

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It seems like you already decided what my answer is but the answer is no. How you keep your animals is irrelevant to my point and I obviously don't have any clue how you care for your animals or even what animals you have. I'm speaking about a mentality, that of which you expressed to me to a tee with this statement:

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I firmly believe that a wolf cared for in captivity even with a big run and knowledgeable owner would not be as happy as an impulsively bought pocket pooch. A wolf needs a pack, a wolf wants acres to run, they roam and hunt and are very social. You can replicate that as best you can, but it won't be the same as the wild. A pocket pooch has been bred and domesticated to be perfectly happy living in a human world with easier needs.

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Having that mentality doesn't necessarily mean a person doesn't take care of their animals, but many people who do neglect their pets do so because of that mentality. You spoke of 'easier needs', and that an impulsively bought dog (of which I specified as abandoned and ignored) fares better than a wolf with a knowledgeable owner and outdoor run. With that statement you validated the idea that domesticated animals have less of a need for quality care-taking, and that is the reason cats are thought by many to be animals you can ignore and they will be fine that way.

I argue that the animal doesn't have "easier needs", that the animal will merely survive but not thrive if they are neglected. You've also said "a wolf wants acres to run". Where did that idea come from? I have no choice but to conclude that because wolves run in the wild, you think a human-socialized wolf needs that too. If you have some other reason for saying that I'd be interested in hearing it, but if you're fed up with this discussion that's fine too.

"and that an impulsively bought dog (of which I specified as abandoned and ignored)"

My apologies here, I must have missed the neglected and ignored part, I only apparently registered the impulsively bought part.

Easier needs, maybe not, but different needs that are easier to meet. Because they are easier to meet, they will fare better than if that same impulsive owner bought an exotic.

Regarding running wolves, I am basing this off of a documentary I watched at one point that had said wolves sometimes run just for the sake of running, with no discernible reason the people studying them could pinpoint. Of course they may have been reason, just because they couldn't see one doesn't mean there aren't any. Similar to huskies needing to run or expend energy daily or they will suffer from it (course, that is because they were bred that way). Maybe that is wrong, I didn't go and fact check after watching.

No problem, I have no doubt in my mind wolves love to run, which is not unique from their dog derivatives. My question is how much a wolf 'needs' to run. Huskies are a great example of an animal that we've selected for a pre-existing trait and modified it for our needs. Yet it should be noted that most huskies are also just pets and do just fine without long trekking.
I brought up a similar criticism against Dr.K in my article and her comment about a fennec fox being from a desert, making them unsuitable for South Florida's climate. Both domesticated cats and golden hamsters (Mesocricetus auratus) (they are actually not domesticated) originate from desert climates and no one judges the keeping of those animals in all 50 state's climates. Many exotic pets are 100% difficult to care for various reasons. I think a wolf requires similar care to a dominant, active, independent dog breed. As far as exotics go I don't think they are 'difficult', they just require more than what the average owner is willing to provide. I honestly feel like green iguanas are not difficult despite people claiming such, I think the issue is it's more care than what most people are willing to provide for a $15 animal.
For people like me who are obsessed with exotics those aren't issues. Snakes are an exotic that are very easy to care for, space-wise, maintenance-wise, ect. Since we are on a reptile owner's forum, I feel it is important to understand why the criticism that animal rights activists use against us is largely invalid.

Lots of huskies don't need the long trek, but they DO need a way to burn off their energy and something mentally stimulating or they can and will become destructive out of boredom. They're definitely not low maintenance in the way of dogs. My aunt and uncle got sucked into the cute husky puppy trap and a few months later I see the post on Facebook: "Does anybody know any good dog trainers?" And at this point the dog has been rehomed. it's really too bad, they can be wonderful dogs. And some definitely don't need the maintenance as much. I absolutely agree that a lot of animals are more care than people are willing to provide for a cheap animal - that is sort of what I was getting at with my "basic needs that are harder to meet" bit. Lots of people don't even know the proper care at all, let alone being willing to provide it or not. I would say that a chameleon is hard to care for because of the amount of needs that need to be met. Individually they are not bad, but lump them all together and it looks like quite the job.

In my original post, I wasn't agreeing with Dr. k. I think she is rather narrow minded with that view. I was just using said friend of mine as a possible example behind the reasoning, and elaborating follow up posts based on said post. I think she can do what she does and believe what she does without being a hypocrite. As long as people are going to own the animals, she probably wants them to be as healthy as possible, so even though she isn't exactly supportive she might as well do what she can to help sort of situation. She doesn't want them kept as pets but that's not a reason for her to refuse treatment and make the animals suffer for it.

I don't necessarily think that exotics should be banned. Regulated, couldn't hurt for some species (of course it's not that easy at all and is its own can of worms). I wasn't kidding when I said maybe people should have to pass a test to own animals - exotic or not. As it stands anybody with money can buy just about any sort of pet, and lots of animals of every kind suffer for it. There needs to be more exotic vets in the world, so I'm glad she does what she does regardless. She's probably the only option a lot of people have.

I haven't seen the show but I'll try to check it out. I have, however worked for several vets and with several rescues. In both situations you see SOOOO many people bring in a pet that they have no business having and they either want you to "fix" it or they want to dump their problem(s). I'm not talking about ignorant, misinformed people. I love them, as long as they are willing to listen and try. I'm also ok with people who give up an animal because they've gotten in over their head or when circumstances change and can no longer care for it. But all too often people get animals and refuse to care for them properly because it's an inconvenience.
I don't think it's good to have a tv vet saying that people shouldn't have exotics, it's a bit of a broad statement, but I can definitely relate to why she would. It's frustrating to have to constantly clean up after people when there is another living being involved, but she could use that as an educational tool. Point out the "negative" aspects of the animal's care, such as life span, housing, maintenance, special requirements, temperament/handlability and potential vet costs. I for one, would be delighted if there were programs that gave equal weight to the "cons" as well as the "pros" of having the animals they talk about.

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but they DO need a way to burn off their energy and something mentally stimulating or they can and will become destructive out of boredom.

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Exactly, the same is done with zoo animals, although no one needs to worry about their destruction since they have their own enclosures. I would pretty much do the same if I had a pet like wolf, they shouldn't be trusted to free-roam the house without supervision and should have their own space. Again, it depends on the person. Some people absolutely love to exercise with their dogs so they probably don't see those aspects as maintenance.

I'm not sure a test is going to do much since talk is cheap. People can be trained to answer questions but that doesn't mean they have the experience, money, or space for certain animals. Although I can't think of anything else that can be done for non-dangerous animals. I favor more aggressively raising awareness and not supporting their sale in pet stores. Breeders also need to be responsible in who they sell to. I did write an article that has my own recommendations for how regulations should be shaped for animals that are 'dangerous' or extremely high-maintenance.