Subtle morphs and hets sold as normals?

my friend bought a furefly but ended up getting a firefly yb, very lucky indeed.

If a breeder screws up and ships a normal to someone who paid for something else, that breeder needs to make good and refund the difference.

As for selling something more as a normal, that's a bonus for the buyer. I have some eggs incubating that could produce specter. If I'm not sure, I'm going to call it a normal. I'd rather get less money now, than to rip off someone by selling an animal as something more expensive.

We all make mistakes it's how those mistakes are handled that is the test.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

If a breeder screws up and ships a normal to someone who paid for something else, that breeder needs to make good and refund the difference.

As for selling something more as a normal, that's a bonus for the buyer. I have some eggs incubating that could produce specter. If I'm not sure, I'm going to call it a normal. I'd rather get less money now, than to rip off someone by selling an animal as something more expensive.

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I realize an extra gene woukd be a bonus to most anyone, it sure would be for me, but in a situation where you were shooting for something specific, it could completely change the results! Granted its a slim chance especially with a het, but with a normal looking co dom it could lead to a clutch of BELs, that might be a huge waste to some people, right? I'm just guessing, I really don't know...

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Originally Posted by Swayback

I realize an extra gene woukd be a bonus to most anyone, it sure would be for me, but in a situation where you were shooting for something specific, it could completely change the results! Granted its a slim chance especially with a het, but with a normal looking co dom it could lead to a clutch of BELs, that might be a huge waste to some people, right? I'm just guessing, I really don't know...

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It could happen with an unexpected het too. But in most cases those unexpected morphs will still sell for more than a normal, so even though the person didn't get what they wanted, it isn't a complete waste in that they can still make a little money selling the babies. If they bought what they thought was a normal, they can't be expecting many high end morphs any way.

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Originally Posted by Swayback

I realize an extra gene woukd be a bonus to most anyone, it sure would be for me, but in a situation where you were shooting for something specific, it could completely change the results! Granted its a slim chance especially with a het, but with a normal looking co dom it could lead to a clutch of BELs, that might be a huge waste to some people, right? I'm just guessing, I really don't know...

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It could happen with an unexpected het too. But in most cases those unexpected morphs will still sell for more than a normal, so even though the person didn't get what they wanted, it isn't a complete waste in that they can still make a little money selling the babies. If they bought what they thought was a normal, they can't be expecting many high end morphs any way.

I just can't imagine any one being upset over getting more than they expected when they paid less. Paying $20 for a "normal" and getting something like a bel, or whatever, seems like a win win to me, regardless what you were shooting for.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

We all make mistakes it's how those mistakes are handled that is the test.

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I think your talking about the other end of things, people being ripped off, that's not really what I'm talking about, I totally agree, an honest mistake can happen, and can usually be resolved, but I'm more talking about the other end of things, snakes getting mixed up and called normals, I'm sure after there's been more than a few fires and yellowbellys dumped or passed around and their lineage lost..

I have sold 100's of pos het males and females and 100% het males as normals. With the prices of visual morphs as low as they are there just isn't a huge market for pos hets and male hets. I guess there is a chance of someone being surprised down the road but honestly the chance is there in all clutches. I'm sure many of the thousands of imported balls that come in the country yearly are het for one recessive gene or another.

As far as hets go, lots and lots of breeders sell "possible" hets as normals. You really can't get much more than a normals' price for them, so why bother? That's how the axanthic pied came to be. The breeder never knew the normals he had were het axanthic. Of course, stupid odds help too, because "possible" hets even if they truly are het, bred to one another have a monumental chance of producing the visual. What I mean is, say you buy a normal "possible" het hypo as just a normal. If though it actually IS het, you don't know that. Let's say for arguments sake, you also have a pastel het hypo. And let's say you pair the two. Even though both are het hypo, you only have a 1 in 8 chance, statistically, to hit the visual. So even if you get eggs from that female for two or even three seasons, theoretically, you may not hit a visual.

Now add a second recessive gene to that mix, pied. Now you only have a 1 in 16 chance, statistically, to hit the double visual. You could breed for five or six seasons or longer and not hit it. But Markus did it. He hit the double recessive, with a gene he didn't even know he had.

So yes, possible hets are sold as normals all the time. But a person could go insane trying to prove if a normal was anything but a normal.

Now, as to "morphs" being sold as normals. That can and does happen now and then, but it is nearly always caused by an unscrupulous breeder selling to an inexperienced buyer. Anyone who is serious about ball pythons makes sure they know what they are looking for. And yes, even with subtle morphs you can tell. Spotnose for example, looks like a normal to probably 90% of people. But if someone is looking for a spotnose, then you can be sure they know how to tell a true spotnose from a normal. The same thing with a morph like spector. Most people may not know the difference, but someone who is looking for a spector will be able to tell.

Now there are very poor examples of morphs out there. And to someone with less experience you may not be able to tell what they are. This is why serious breeders will consult with other breeders when there is doubt. For example, the Enchi. A very poor Enchi could easily be mistaken for a normal. But a quality Enchi can't be mistaken for anything but an Enchi. Or the Leopard. A poor example of a leopard might be mistaken for a normal to someone with less experience. But someone who knows the gene, is shopping for the gene, they know what a good example of a leopard should look like and would never buy a normal by mistake.

The best way to protect yourself is to become familiar with the morph you seek. That way there will be no buying a normal instead.

Gale

As everyone has already said, selling possible hets as normals happens a lot. And I've seen several threads where people have posted pictures of their new snake and have been told there's another gene in there (I specifically remember a firefly that was actually a firefly yellowbelly, and a butter or lesser that was actually a fire butter/lesser). For a breeder's reputation, it's definitely better to sell something they're unsure about as a normal, than to have a customer get an unpleasant surprise.

I believe Brian at BHB Reptiles has said that before they proved out the sunset morph, he sold a bunch of het sunset babies to local pet stores at the price of normals because he was convinced the morph wasn't genetic. So there are people who own het sunsets that were purchased as normals. And now they're selling for thousands of dollars :O

I remember reading a thread a few months ago about someone hatching axanthic clowns, and they had no idea that the male was het for axanthic, they were just trying to prove the possible het clown female to be het clown. Definitely a surprise I wouldn't mind :) Here it is: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...was-unexpected