Quandary regarding my future breeding plans! What would you do?

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Originally Posted by sho220

Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...

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Thank you SO much for saying this. As I was reading some of the posts that have been posted since my earlier one (and I'll admit, mine even leans that way), it made me really sad to see that apparently the only thing worth breeding for in BP is to cram more genes into a single snake.

I've long wondered why in the corn snake world, people REALLY appreciate a good line bred normal. They don't sell for a fortune (not even compared to other corns), but people appreciate them, and I have the impression they sell easily. Of course, they have names, cuz they are line bred for specific traits, so they are called Okeetees or Miamis or the like. But they don't carry a single "reproducible genetic trait" in the sense of Mendelian genetics. Yet in contrast (and it's really the contrast I've wondered about), people in the BP world not only don't appreciate it, they tell you not to do it. It's a waste. No one does that. You won't be able to find buyers.

I suspect part of it is the difference in what genes are available. Most corn genes are recessive. That slows down breeding projects, and gives you more opportunities to do some selective breeding. Most BP genes are codom, so you just go from one gene to 2 to 4 to 8 in only 3 generations. Well... you could try anyway! :)

So I can see why the trend is there, but not to the point where selective breeding is very limited in the BP world. WHY aren't there more people working on making FANTASTIC pastels? (or for Pythonfriend and any others who think pastels are totally worthless...pick your favorite common morph).

I will say that I'm glad that one of the most commonly repeated pieces of advice is to work with what you like...work with what excites you. I just wish there were more people who could get excited for someone who is excited about producing the best <insert single gene here> the world has ever seen, instead of telling them there is no point.

I think there are a few factors at play, but most of those factors come down to supply and demand.

I do NOT mean people think they're going to turn a profit - that isn't it, at all. I've said before and others have said (and I agree with them) that breeding isn't really profitable. It's more about... bang for your buck. Corn snake morphs aren't, so far as I know, selling for thousands and thousands of dollars. A LOT of BP morphs/combos are, because the demand exceeds the supply in a lot of ways. That means people who want one of these need to either: a-) Make (breed) it themselves, or b-) find some way to generate some of their money back from that animal. Conversely, the single gene and noms have a higher supply and a lower demand. Which means, of course, they're *monetarily* worthless. If you think that's an insult, please see my signature for exactly what sort of snakes I own, by the way.

Cornsnakes have been popular pets for longer, bred for pretty colors longer, and are still far more common for somebody to have as a pet than a BP. Of BP, most people's pets are normals, yeah, but ... normals and single genes are often a 'byproduct' of combo breeding. They are produced in far, far greater quantities than there are pet homes for them. There are still people breeding them on their own and that's fine, but finding homes for them isn't easy and the competition is fierce. My state's reptile rescue is DROWNING in normal ball pythons, because they're so common. I have had people offer me FREE male normals and common single genes, or just for the cost of shipping because...

Where do the all go?

Right now, as I see it, the biggest problem with BP breeding is that the balance between their popularity as breeders and their popularity as pets is off.

I don't think people breeding is bad. I'm not coming down on anyone for breeding, regardless of what they breed and I think there should be appreciation for breeders who REALLY care about the quality and health of their animals. I just also think that there are an awful lot of normals and pastels floating around, and that people saying 'don't' isn't necessarily that they think single gene animals are in and of themselves are bad, but that they're ALL OVER THE PLACE and finding somewhere for them to go can become a problematic money sink for the people who breed them (and that's not touching on the plight of the animals themselves).

...That doesn't mean there aren't people who consider Normals, Pastels, common single genes, and female deserts 'trash snakes'. I kinda think those people are just jerks though.

Well, there's a lot to reply to here, so I'll take it all in stride.

@ Sho22 Before the big girls fell in to my lap, I was not expecting to even attempt breeding until the late 2015 season at the earliest. That way I would have a sufficient amount of time to see if the project will prove out. It would give me time to select the snakes that I want, rather than just taking what's available. I got a great deal on my first package,I felt that the snakes that I purchased were fine examples of their genetics, and already had a plan set out for when I picked them up. Ivories, Bumblebees, Super Pastels. Future breeding plans after that involved using those with purchasing power to acquire mojaves/phantoms to aim for Purple Passions and Blue Eyed leucistics. The big normal females just kind of...happened, and require me to use some of the space that I was reserving for the other females that I was planning to purchase. I started out male heavy because I'm trying to be picky with what I'm breeding, to try to produce quality offspring.

@ wescoast http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/ , Yeah. I keep it up and play with it constantly to find what I want to make. I have goals and the passion is definitely there. I love all of my snakes!

@PYTHONFRIEND I'm not really looking to get ahead of other breeders, or to create the next big thing. I love snakes. I love genetics. As far as just buying what I want to get what I want, there's a certain amount of a sense of accomplishment that comes from going the extra step and doing something for yourself rather than just buying it.

I also like some of the ideas that you had regarding what to breed with what. A lot of it is stuff that I had considered myself. By the by, the ultramel was like...$20, and was adorable, so I kind of tacked him on to my purchase in the event that I'm able to get a het ultramel female in the future. I know that, the females are not cheap though, so he's more of a pet with the potential to help a few years down the line.

@ Corbin911 Ah, no. I'm an enthusiast and not looking to make money from this. Not in the first few years, at least. Fortunately my costs have been very low thus far. I really only eat the cost of electric, food, snakes. The rest I either get for free or make myself. I'm in to this project right now for less than $300 without factoring food/electric. As I mentioned before, I don't even plan to breed this year. That may change with the addition of the big girls, but for the time being it's all planning for 2015 and beyond.

There's a lot more to touch on here, but it's late and I'm tired. :)

Thanks for all of the advice, and I'm definitely reading everything and taking it all in!

im not saying normal BPs or single-gene basic morph BPs are worthless or that they are not beautiful. they are beautful and they make really good pets.

but when you want to produce BPs, other factors come into play. like, the market situation. people give away single-gene males for free and people give away normals for free and they accumulate in reptile rescues. all BPs deserve a good life, but if you breed BPs that fall right into the segment of the market that is completely saturated, where will they end up?

it should not be this way and its messed up, but its true: if you hatch out a nice double or triple gene combo, something visually appealing, it will have better chances to have a better life. when 15 BPs arrive at a reptile sanctuary, mostly normals or basic single-gene BPs that look rather normal, but there also is a good looking kingpin and a BEL in there, its obvious that these very visual ones will successfully get rehomed first, the reptile sanctuary might even auction them for charity.

so trying to produce clutches with more genes is not just about getting ahead in the game. the other side of the story is that you want to produce less of these BPs that will be difficult to sell, and to make your BPs more appealing as pets, by giving them more attractive optics that are further away from the normal/classic look. its about avoiding the overly saturated bottom end of the market, where higher production is not needed because there already are problems and more hatchlings make it worse.

so when i say elsewhere something about recessives like: "dont breed het to het, breeding visual to het is fine when the het has a helpful extra gene, but really you want to breed visual to visual", its not just about money, its also that hets look like normals, so there is no additional appeal when its a pet, and breeders also show no interest when the het doesnt show high quality and doesnt have an extra gene.

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Originally Posted by sho220

Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...

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Nothing wrong with an ultra clean Pastel. Having an ultra clean animal gives you a better shot at good looking babies, but I've seen plenty of ugly Pastels come from a pretty Pastel. I have a Pastel that most would cast aside, or not even take for free. I call her "Big Brown". She makes some of the most amazing Pastels I have ever seen. Maybe she had an incubation issue that is not genetic??

Either way, she is here to stay and breeding a Nuclear Pinstripe now (Late layer.... October ovy last season).

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...pse6d8d18f.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps445e3ae4.jpg

Pastave from her last season. A good example of the morph IMHO. Bright yellows and high blushing that did not come from the Mojave sire.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps25c1ff53.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...

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I simply can't agree more, Everything is so complicated and sometimes to me quit ugly, as you don't see any resemblance to what there gene's are... for example the "Gumball" I think that is one of the ugliest morphs to date.. Now vs that With something like a super pastel Clown or a Lavender pied. The 2-3 genes are were i think the "looks" max out at.. Anything more is complicated, Now there are a few like the Orange Dream Fire Enchi Spider, Which makes that super clean snake that looks amazing, but IMO its pretty rare.

I think it is worthwhile to have breeders exploring 4, 5, and more gene snakes. Some of the combos do look amazing. But for some reason it makes people forget that some of the 2, 3 gene combos look amazing. Heck, some single genes look amazing. Yet people are saying things like you shouldn't produce them, except as side products of bigger projects. Sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...

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I am by no means an expert. I dont even have my females yet but there are a few things I do quite well. I am a planner with some OCD. I actually am the other recipient from oskyle1567 100% Het Ghost male that he gave away last week. One of those "fall in your lap" kinda things. I however didnt jump up and get excited for a new breeder. I have a spreadsheet for what males I need as well as females and the optimum output when paired. These are animals that I would like to produce for me. Not as a side business or snakes for profit but an honest to god interest in snakes and genetics.
I also am fairly handy so I build my own racks. So I am able to offset my cost and pretty much have everything planned out. Only thing I am not worried about nickel and diming is electricity.

I completely agree with sho220 in the fact that there are so many people just making snakes. Who stops and thinks where the results will be in 20 years when bumblebees are no longer cool. Some of these multi gene creations look like they are BPs with serious defects but very cool cause they are pretty. I think the health of the animal should also be taken into consideration. Any ways I am new to breeding and havent even started yet and have no plans on it until I build a 9-41qt rack as well as a 28-6qt rack and an incubator. Already have a 1k Honda generator which will supply backup power in case of loss of power.

Good luck and quality over quantity.