So...This Is A Thing?

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Originally Posted by Raven01

From: http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/venomoid-faq.html


It looks like The Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine is the place to search for documentation.
But, true hot or not and prevelence of re-growthaside, there seem to be enough shady people selling things as something they aren't that anyone free handling and showing off with a venomoid could easily find themselves nominated for a Darwin Award.

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So, no.

The link is broken and if you read the whole paragraph it says ducts not just glands.

Worthless.

So, does anyone know of any documented cases of the venom glands regrowing?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So, no.

The link is broken and if you read the whole paragraph it says ducts not just glands.

Worthless.

So, does anyone know of any documented cases of the venom glands regrowing?

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We went round and round with this subject over a decade ago on the Kingsnake venomous forum. I have never seen or heard of a single case of regeneration of a gland only the duct. I have never owned, nor do I care to own a venomoid. I just don't get the "inhumane" argument when we are talking about a vet doing it. How is it any different than spaying or neutering, decenting, declawing, ear cropping, or tail docking. Decenting ferrets and declawing cats is done for convenience. The ears and tail are done just for cosmetic purposes. People say if your responsible you should be able to keep an intact hot. Couldn't you make the same case against spaying and neutering? Responsible people don't let their males run loose or breed by accident. Not trying to argue, just presenting another side. :)

The guy at the Kentucky reptile Zoo has a couple of videos of "Venomoids" being milked either due to missed gland tissue or regrowth on youtube.

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Originally Posted by treeboa

How is it any different than spaying or neutering, decenting, declawing, ear cropping, or tail docking. Decenting ferrets and declawing cats is done for convenience. The ears and tail are done just for cosmetic purposes. People say if your responsible you should be able to keep an intact hot. Couldn't you make the same case against spaying and neutering? Responsible people don't let their males run loose or breed by accident. Not trying to argue, just presenting another side. :)

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I don't think any of those are remotely comparable though, the closest would be declawing a cat (which I don't agree with and think it's pretty cruel to the cat). None of them take away the animals ability to eat or kill prey. None of them change the animal from what it is innately. It's more akin to pulling the teeth of a big exotic so that if it bites you, it won't be as bad, or if there was someway to make constrictors not constrict anymore.
And spaying and neutering both have benefits for dogs that aren't breeding. Spaying a non breeder takes away the risk of ovarian cancer and neutering a male dog can help alter his behavior, and it's a heck of a lot safer for OTHER PEOPLE out in public. If you are at a dog park, and one female dog is in heat and if you have unaltered male there, even with a few others who are fixed... it's not fun or safe, and a dog fight waiting to happen. I've worked with lots of unaltered and altered dogs, and I'd take a neutered one every time. It does do a lot for their temperament. Plus it can cut down on PEE ON ALL THE THINGS.
Docking and cropping has its roots in working dogs to keep their ears and tails from being mangled while out on the field, and in that scenario, it is for the animals benefit. On a day to day basis... eh, I personally wouldn't go out of my way to crop or dock, but I've heard done correctly (and at the proper age) it doesn't affect the dogs hearing. I don't know ferrets, but declawing cats IMO is inhumane :/

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The guy at the Kentucky reptile Zoo has a couple of videos of "Venomoids" being milked either due to missed gland tissue or regrowth on youtube.

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Do you have a link to them. I did a search on Youtube and found some anonymous user with the name 6Speedvert milking three snakes he said were venomoid. He seemed to assume the first and last had gland removal because he said their heads were shrunken in. The second looked normal. The second and third produced venom. Really anecdotal considering he didn't know for sure what surgery they had or in the case of the second one if it truly had surgery. Also, he had no information on who did the surgery. There are only 2-3 vets who perform this surgery and they provide certificates about the procedure. Venomoid Inc. used to contract one of these vets and sell on Kingsnake.

Of course everything I just said is an argument AGAINST trusting a venomoid, also. Certificates can be faked, the snake could have had "surgery" by a backroom butcher instead of a vet or no surgery at all. The caved in head is a tell tale sign of a backroom butcher, vets use human-grade implants to replace the glands.

Here's a link to the YouTube video I found: http://youtu.be/IoTvy2eEgRc

It's stupid and I don't agree with it at all.

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Originally Posted by sunshinenorcas

I don't think any of those are remotely comparable though, the closest would be declawing a cat (which I don't agree with and think it's pretty cruel to the cat). None of them take away the animals ability to eat or kill prey. None of them change the animal from what it is innately. It's more akin to pulling the teeth of a big exotic so that if it bites you, it won't be as bad, or if there was someway to make constrictors not constrict anymore.
And spaying and neutering both have benefits for dogs that aren't breeding. Spaying a non breeder takes away the risk of ovarian cancer and neutering a male dog can help alter his behavior, and it's a heck of a lot safer for OTHER PEOPLE out in public. If you are at a dog park, and one female dog is in heat and if you have unaltered male there, even with a few others who are fixed... it's not fun or safe, and a dog fight waiting to happen. I've worked with lots of unaltered and altered dogs, and I'd take a neutered one every time. It does do a lot for their temperament. Plus it can cut down on PEE ON ALL THE THINGS.
Docking and cropping has its roots in working dogs to keep their ears and tails from being mangled while out on the field, and in that scenario, it is for the animals benefit. On a day to day basis... eh, I personally wouldn't go out of my way to crop or dock, but I've heard done correctly (and at the proper age) it doesn't affect the dogs hearing. I don't know ferrets, but declawing cats IMO is inhumane :/

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The argument that venomoids can't digest food is false. I've kept lots of hots, they all ate f/t prey and they never envenomated it. Just us keeping previously wild animals in captivity change what the animal is. Isn't devenomizing a hot making it safer to the keeper and the public? As far as docking and cropping, the rationale is putting the dog through a procedure because that how it's traditionally done? Doesn't seem like a good reason. Remember people talk about venomoid surgery being unnecessary and for the convenience of the owner. My point is most of these procedures are not inhumane if done by a vet under anesthesia (although I could make a good case for declawing and cropping ears both of which seem very painful and take a long time to heal) and one can argue their necessity also.

The deeper I get into the herp community, the more I respectfully adopt the stance that certain animals should be observed in zoos and not kept by private keepers. Certain monitors, alligators, certain large constrictors, and venomous snakes would fall into this category for me. This practice just solidifies that belief for me.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

The deeper I get into the herp community, the more I respectfully adopt the stance that certain animals should be observed in zoos and not kept by private keepers. Certain monitors, alligators, certain large constrictors, and venomous snakes would fall into this category for me. This practice just solidifies that belief for me.

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I'm totally in no intention derailing this thread, but since you just mentioned alligator this story popped in my head. It's the new record for an alligator, not sure if it's just in MS or what.

Here's the story:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...rre&id=9243228

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So, no.

The link is broken and if you read the whole paragraph it says ducts not just glands.

Worthless.

So, does anyone know of any documented cases of the venom glands regrowing?

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The link works for me, not sure why it doesn't for you.
As for "worthless", try comprehending what is said, "A snake with even a little bit of gland tissue left can still give a very bad bite, possibly enough to kill. Regeneration has been reported by veterinarians who have examined some of these snakes, especially when only the duct is severed."

The word, "especially" indicates that this makes the issue much more likely not that it is the only way this can happen.

As I suggested before. Contact the source directly which would be the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine.
I've seen enough tissue regrowth in many vertebrates that one wouldn't expect to have that level of regenerative ability to easily dismiss this claim without reason, you are the one requesting the specifics so, do your own leg-work on digging it up.

Also, hots sold with full venom glands and severed/cauterized ducts are sold as venomoids. Therefore duct or gland has no impact on whether or not it is wise to still consider venomoids as still hot al ethical questions on the procedure aside.