Calico's - Any lethal combos to stay away from?

To your point - TheSnakeGeek - This is probably the reason for Nerd releasing the video I recently watched. To educate hobbyist / breeders of the known potential dangers from his experiences. Is it the end all be all of tragic breeding combinations? I doubt that. I don't think I'll ever take anyone's word as bible but I surely will take it under advisement. This hobby in my opinion is still in its early stages leaving many unknown variables yet to be discovered (good and bad). Genetics, at its most basic level states "1 from mommy and 1 from daddy". I can wrap my head around that and agree that it applies everywhere. Regarding the morphs in question, to date, I'm pleased to hear that I don't have to worry about non producing females, wobble heads, etc. Seems like we are still scratching the surface with multi-gene morphs (3, 4, 5 genes) which is what makes all of this exciting. Hence why I post the question, because I want to experience those good moments with some sound knowledge from those who are veterans in the hobby (collectively). :) Thanks all for the tidal wave of information. :D

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

as far as calico combined with other genes, there is nothing lethal (as far as i know). calico x calico is another issue. same with spider x spider or pinstripe x pinstripe. with no known homozygous form it is accepted that the super form is lethal. since a super form never shows up and they have to have an allele from each parent, the only logical conclusion is it's lethal.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

when i say spider x spider, or calico x calico, or pin x pin is lethal, i don't mean that in the sense that you'll have to deal with dead or deformed babies. the babies just simply never develop. you'll never see them.

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First I don't know why you are lumping Pinstripe into this conversation. Brain @ BHB has talked about having a Pinstripe that has only ever produced Pinstripes in multiple breedings. Which means there is a Homozygous Pinstripe.

Second the part I bolded doesn't make any sense to me. Follicles are fertilized and become eggs when a female ovulates so if the homozygous forms of these morphs were lethal you would see something. Whether it be deformed hatchlings or eggs going bad and not making it, but no one has reported that happening.

We really don't know exactly what is going on because no one has truly done the breeding and research to see.
I mean in all honestly who wants to produce the numbers of these morphs and keep all of them, raise them up and then breed them out multiple times to prove it out either way.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

First I don't know why you are lumping Pinstripe into this conversation. Brain @ BHB has talked about having a Pinstripe that has only ever produced Pinstripes in multiple breedings. Which means there is a Homozygous Pinstripe.

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i've heard this too, but it's always been hearsay on the forums. i've also heard people say they've asked brian about this and he's denied it. do you have any links of it coming straight from the horses mouth?

i highly doubt that if super pinstripes were possible there would only be one in the world. you say not enough research has been done because people don't want to raise the babies all the way to adulthood and breed them to find out. whether they raise them theirselves or sell them, that doesnt change the fact that they could still be supers, and there would've been at least one other person come forward and notice they had a pinstripe that was throwing nothing but pins. but even if brian does has a super pin, why doesn't a single other person out of the thousands of breeders? it could be a "fluke" of sorts. there have been "lethal" combos that have survived.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

i've heard this too, but it's always been hearsay on the forums. i've also heard people say they've asked brian about this and he's denied it. do you have any links of it coming straight from the horses mouth?

i highly doubt that if super pinstripes were possible there would only be one in the world. you say not enough research has been done because people don't want to raise the babies all the way to adulthood and breed them to find out. whether they raise them theirselves or sell them, that doesnt change the fact that they could still be supers, and there would've been at least one other person come forward and notice they had a pinstripe that was throwing nothing but pins. but even if brian does has a super pin, why doesn't a single other person out of the thousands of breeders? it could be a "fluke" of sorts. there have been "lethal" combos that have survived.

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He has supposedly talked about it on an old episode of reptile radio, but I haven't been able to locate it. Never really made much of an effort to though either.
And you are right it could be some type of fluke who really knows.

I guess my big thing is calling them lethal combos when they really aren't.
There is no evidence that any one of the pairings being discussed is a lethal pairing where messed up hatchlings are produced that don't survive or you end up with eggs going bad or hatchlings dying in the egg.
That to me is what a "lethal" combo really is.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

He has supposedly talked about it on an old episode of reptile radio, but I haven't been able to locate it. Never really made much of an effort to though either.
And you are right it could be some type of fluke who really knows.

I guess my big thing is calling them lethal combos when they really aren't.
There is no evidence that any one of the pairings being discussed is a lethal pairing where messed up hatchlings are produced that don't survive or you end up with eggs going bad or hatchlings dying in the egg.
That to me is what a "lethal" combo really is.

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i can agree to disagree. :) as i said earlier, i didnt mean lethal as in you would have to deal with dead or deformed babies, but i consider a "lethal" combo any combination of genes or alleles that is incapable of producing living offspring, in which case spider x spider, calico x calico, and (maybe?) pin x pin is.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

i can agree to disagree. :) as i said earlier, i didnt mean lethal as in you would have to deal with dead or deformed babies, but i consider a "lethal" combo any combination of genes or alleles that is incapable of producing living offspring, in which case spider x spider, calico x calico, and (maybe?) pin x pin is.

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And this is the issue.
All 3 of those pairings produce living offspring.
You don't end up with a greater number of eggs going bad during incubation, hatchlings dying in the egg, or deformed babies.
So how exactly are they incapable of producing living offspring?:confusd:

Eggs can't be reabsorbed or become slugs after a female Ovys. And the males sperm doesn't met the follicle until a female Ovys. So if these pairings were "lethal" you would have some visual issue with either the eggs or hatchlings right?

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

And this is the issue.
All 3 of those pairings produce living offspring.
You don't end up with a greater number of eggs going bad during incubation, hatchlings dying in the egg, or deformed babies.
So how exactly are they incapable of producing living offspring?:confusd:

Eggs can't be reabsorbed or become slugs after a female Ovys. And the males sperm doesn't met the follicle until a female Ovys. So if these pairings were "lethal" you would have some visual issue with either the eggs or hatchlings right?

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Maybe this is a noob question, but why can't the females reabsorb a lethal egg? I seem to remember discussing lethal genes way back when in a genetics class, and I think they used an example in a breed of cat where there was a prenatal lethal combo and the homozygous fetuses were absorbed. Granted, this was in regards to mammals, so I'm not sure how the process would go with snakes...


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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

And this is the issue.
All 3 of those pairings produce living offspring.
You don't end up with a greater number of eggs going bad during incubation, hatchlings dying in the egg, or deformed babies.
So how exactly are they incapable of producing living offspring?:confusd:

Eggs can't be reabsorbed or become slugs after a female Ovys. And the males sperm doesn't met the follicle until a female Ovys. So if these pairings were "lethal" you would have some visual issue with either the eggs or hatchlings right?

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have you ever seen a baby carrying 2 calico genes or 2 spider genes? you haven't because they don't live. they usually don't make it far enough into the incubation to even be seen. eggs go bad in clutches all the time even if there isn't a super. when it does happen because a super spider or calico is in them early on in incubation it's chalked up to be "just another bad egg." theres been discussions on it before with people that are much more knowledgable in genetics than i'll ever be.. let me see what i can find.

the only example i could find on short notice from my phone at work. post #22 specifically, but the rest of the thread is very interesting too.
http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...r-results.html

Isn't it also the case that we know them to be incomplete dominants a thing too?

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