Desert Female Concerns

Stories that have been shared by known breeders

http://www.jwreptiles.com/1/post/201...y-15-2012.html

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm

The "issues" with female Desert BP's as I understand it relates directly to both known lines having under-developed oviducts.
This could cause them to become egg bound.
And, again if I understand correctly again (someone is bound to correct me if I am wrong), it is the egg binding which has resulted in fatalities.

There has been some suggestion that 3000g+ females may have oviducts large enough to allow them to lay fertile eggs. I have no knowledge of whether or not that theory has ever been proven or disproven. There is also a possibility that a morph or even line of wild-type BP's with larger oviducts could "counter act" the negative genetic aspects of Deserts. But, even that is dependent on how the two genes interact and what traits are expressed over others.

I honestly can't see everybody suddenly just starting to try breeding female Deserts as a result of this. If this breeding proves out to produce Deserts and any of those Deserts are also successfully bred then we will really be on to something. Now, if it does prove out and the offspring are fertile there will be a line-up to get a hold of these snakes.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Stories that have been shared by known breeders

http://www.jwreptiles.com/1/post/201...y-15-2012.html

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm

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The snake in that first link looks pretty thin to me... maybe it's just the picture or is it a common thing for them to be rather thin looking? I ask because in the second link she said that most of the deserts are picky eaters. If this is true then maybe diet could be another possibility to look into if they need supplements for egg production. Also, I noticed that for the second link, the desert female was not the only one she had bad luck with that year due to temperature adjustment. Knowing what temps people have tried and failed at is good information too in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by BlueMoonExotics

The snake in that first link looks pretty thin to me... maybe it's just the picture or is it a common thing for them to be rather thin looking? I ask because in the second link she said that most of the deserts are picky eaters. If this is true then maybe diet could be another possibility to look into if they need supplements for egg production. Also, I noticed that for the second link, the desert female was not the only one she had bad luck with that year due to temperature adjustment. Knowing what temps people have tried and failed at is good information too in my opinion.

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That's how any female that just laid eggs looks like.

Sorry, I guess what I meant was she looked more than just post egg laying thin, like maybe she wasn't a great eater. I haven't seen many females post laying other than my own (only 2 which were already underweight and off feed when I got them) and pictures so I don't have a lot of experience with that. Either way she did state that "Like almost all Desert's she has always been a finicky eater". If they really are picky eaters then I can see them being more prone to egg production issues.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I am interested in seeing where this goes to try and expand my personal knowledge.

I might sound a little stupid but here it goes.
Lets just say that a breedable female desert is asking for problems BUT what says that adding in a combo gene doesn't change any of this?
Could morph (x) change the makeup of the desert females problem with breeding?

I know it has been mentioned that we all do this for the love of our animals and I don't want to see any animals die due to reckless abandonment.
Though, if someone isn't willing to take the chance then how do we make any advancements in our hobby?
Why do we continue to breed spiders and spider/combos with the wobble?


EDIT: Keep in mind, what I do in my house I might not recommend someone else do in theirs.

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I don't think you sound stupid. This is a forum for everyone to learn and share ideas and experiences. If everyone thought their idea was stupid and gave up trying then we wouldn't have all the BRILLIANT things we have today :). I think it's a very valid question with the double and triple genes or if it's been outbred enough to have less and less issues. The newer generations and combos might not have the same issues the original females did.

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Originally Posted by BlueMoonExotics

Sorry, I guess what I meant was she looked more than just post egg laying thin, like maybe she wasn't a great eater. I haven't seen many females post laying other than my own (only 2 which were already underweight and off feed when I got them) and pictures so I don't have a lot of experience with that. Either way she did state that "Like almost all Desert's she has always been a finicky eater". If they really are picky eaters then I can see them being more prone to egg production issues.

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There's been some posts on the Bush League forum, Fauna and on Reptiles Canada stating that deserts are more thin than other morphs.

Pete, Stan, Robyn, and Chad would be the ones that could best answer this, but the way Robyn and Chad were crucified by accusations of cover up on Kingsnake, I doubt any of them would be willing to talk about it on public forums again. I, personally, wonder too if outcrossing wouldn't help, but I don't know what these guys have already tried.

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Originally Posted by Buttons

There's been some posts on the Bush League forum, Fauna and on Reptiles Canada stating that deserts are more thin than other morphs.

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I can say that I have a 2009 PE Line Desert male. He is probably the oldest ball python out of the 39 that I have.
He weighs in at a whopping 450g. Up until recently he would only eat rats just a bit bigger than crawler. It also does not seem to matter how much he eats, he just does not grow. I have just recently got him up to eating weaned rats, so we will see if he grows more or not. From what I see in my own, growth stunts maybe a thing with them, and perhaps some display these growth issues external, some like most of the females maybe internal.

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Originally Posted by adamfritzsche

I can say that I have a 2009 PE Line Desert male. He is probably the oldest ball python out of the 39 that I have.
He weighs in at a whopping 450g. Up until recently he would only eat rats just a bit bigger than crawler. It also does not seem to matter how much he eats, he just does not grow. I have just recently got him up to eating weaned rats, so we will see if he grows more or not. From what I see in my own, growth stunts maybe a thing with them, and perhaps some display these growth issues external, some like most of the females maybe internal.

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I was under the impression that the females were the only ones with problems? If males also tend to be picky eaters and stunted growth then it should be taken into consideration as a possible cause of some of the female issues as well. Adam, do you know the lineage of your desert boy? You said he's an 09 but I'm not exactly sure how long the Desert gene has been around. It would be interesting to know if he's an early generation or how many times he's been outbred (or inbred).