The real worth of an RHP?

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Originally Posted by DAL

Okay, I have a few questions here:

What exactly is a T-8? I've seen it mentioned here a few times, but I can't actually seem to find out what it actually is.

What would be the properly sized RHP for a 4'L X2'W X16"H enclosure?

I've also heard that heat tape can be dangerous and can burn your snake - is that true? (Abed likes to repeatedly climb up the background on his current tank and kamikaze himself off of it so I don't trust his survival instincts very well)

Sorry for all the questions. I just find this very confusing right now (hopefully something experience will change), but I still wanna make sure I do my best for Abed.

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There are several things that factor into the size of the RHP. Such as.. Cage size, cage material, High and low temps of the room that the cage is in, What type of animal is in the cage and even things like is the cage near a concrete floor. Heat tape is Used in the same way that UTH are used so they pose the same risk factors as UTH. The down side to RHP are that they are very pricey as compared to heat tape or the cheaper zoo med brand of UTH. They are comparable though to a high quality UTH such as a Kane brand UTH. DO yourself a favor and call Bob at pro Products. You do not have to buy his equipment but just take a few moments and ask him about his RHP and let him give you some very valuable info! I was sold after talking to him BUT even better yet.....I found that all his information was CORRECT :)

Thank you so much for all your help, guys! I will definitely give Bob a call as soon as I a) get my new PVC enclosure and b) get it all set up so I can provide the right information.

Thanks again!

RHPs biggest advantage is a vertical gradient. They make a perfect gradient up and down. norwegn113 has demonstrated a basic failing of RHPs and where all the confusion comes from. In a relatively small space ambient air temps ranging from 78 to 86? unlikely. Air will move by thermal currents. Clearly 8ºF air temp difference is not very likely in a 4-5 sq. foot open space. Measuring ambient temps is complicated under RHPs, they need to be shielded. This leads people to believe RHPs heat air.

Stop and think on it, is the air going to be 8ºF inside an enclosure from one side to the other? Very unlikely. The RHP heats the warm side probe and does not reflect the true air temps.

RHPs work fine they need a fair bit of space and the oldest manufacturer makes a guards for their products. They heat objects so do UTHs the change in ambient temps are about the same. There is no point to have both they do the same thing. I am have had this debate here before but do your own math.

Lets use RB pricing so same thermostat for both lets just say you need 3 feet of 4" heat tape so 3x $2.10 so $6.30 and 4$ for the wire set 10.30 total. That uses max 18 watts.

The RB RHP is $ 64.99 at lets go with the lowest wattage 28w.

UTH usually are set basically to the desired surface temps. (give or take a degree or two.) Typically a RHP surface is greater than 25ºF than the set point.

My math says more power higher purchase price is more expensive.

I would suggest that a RHP can be used for arboreal enclosures and terrestrial enclosures that cannot be heated thorough the floor.

I would suggest a proportional thermostat for RHP UTH it is more debatable IMO. There is no buffer with RHP, they heat quickly so when on there is a marked increase in temps and when off the same. Proportional holds the same temp basically all the time. No big swings.

To me, for terrestrial enclosures, it is an option when UTHs will not work well.

Seriously Kitedemon???? Again you are going to flat out call me a liar???We had this discussion a while ago and it seems you still have the same closed mind you did back then!!!! Did you ever call Bob and talk to him like I suggested or are you still basing your facts of the same little failed experiment you did last year when you tried to put a RHP in a 12" tall box and say " it doesn't work!" Point in fact... you are not here to measure my set up and do tests on MY cage so you can not truly say that I am wrong. You are merely stating your opinion and calling me a liar based on opinion NOT fact!!! I will Not spend another second arguing this with you! You have shown in the past to give bad info to people AND not thoroughly read members posts fully! I suggest to any members out there to take your advice with a grain out salt and like Forest Gump.....Thats all I got to say about that!!

I keep my arboreal tropical colubrids in the same building as my snakes that require cooler temps.

The arboreal colubrids are in 3' or 4' tall cages with radiant heat panels mounted along the length of the ceiling.

In the winter, I kill almost all of the heat in the herp building. I keep it in the mid 50's in there.

But the arboreal cages have a nice toasty heat gradient in there. 90 at the top branches, all the way down to the mid to low 70s at the floor.

In an unheated room.

Sitting directly on the floor.

A linoleum floor.

Which sits on a concrete slab.

Are you getting the picture?

When I kept womas and blackheads, I kept them in cages heated with radiant heat panels. In our house, with the average winter temps at 67 to 68 degrees, the cages were kept at 90 on the hot side and the mid to high 70s on the cool end. With an intermediate zone in between.

If you have some objects in your cage, and these objects are within the area of influence of the RHP, they will heat up.

When they heat up, they will warm up things around them.

The ambient will raise. More so than with just belly or back heat.

If you place an RHP in a cage, with nothing but substrate in it, you will not get this radiant effect.

Whatever.

All I said is 8ºF difference in ambient temps is almost impossible in the space inside a box. THINK logically how is it possible the air temp from the left and right is that different?

I am very open minded I read and ask questions. I did send Bob 3 emails and he didn't respond so I sent one to Reptile radiator and had an interesting discussion. Yes they confirmed black absorbs more long wave IR than white does (white things in the sun are cooler than black ones) You claimed differently. The issue I have is the things closer to the RHP get hotter than the floor does.


How do the objects closer to the panel stay cooler than objects farther? How?

How can you explain 8ºF difference in ambient air temps? Can you explain how that is possible inside an enclosure?

I'd suggest people use their heads and think! Nothing more than logic will bring most to the point of view I have.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

... some that are going to tell you that they are not as economical as UTH.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

The down side to RHP are that they are very pricey as compared to heat tape or the cheaper zoo med brand of UTH. They are comparable though to a high quality UTH such as a Kane brand UTH.

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Back peddling again? Do you own a Kane pad? I do. The smallest they make is too large for many enclosures. There are many many brands of UTH that are very good, Kane is one of the only brands that can safely be used inside an enclosure (waterproof and low wattage), very few need or choose to do so.

RHPs are not better than UTH they are basically the same. UTH are easier, to use cheaper to run and buy. There are less issues with them. I have never been able to get temps of 90ºF on the top of the highest part of the hide and 90ºF on the floor. Apparently I am odd in my belief that as you approach the RHP it gets warmer.

I have repeatedly said the same things.

RHP are Radiant heat sources (UTH also are radiant heat sources), they heat objects not air.

RHP heat from the panel down, things closest to the panel are hotter than farther things , this is not ideal for terrestrial animals it is for arboreal.

RHP ,on average, cost more to run and buy than UTH.

Probe placement is problematic. Snakes should NEVER come between a probe and heat source.

RHPs effect on objects changes based on absorption and mass.

The use of an RHP is best suited for arboreal set ups as it heats perfectly vertically. Terrestrial set ups are ideally suited for UTH unless the design of the enclosure is such that they may not be used (wood floors). They are a good second choice.

I have said the same thing over and over your arguments change constantly. The questions above you can try to answer i would like to hear a logical response please omit your digs and insults at me and just answer them. Anyone reading should be able to as well they are common sense.

I have not said you are a liar. I said it was likely your readings are not taken correctly. You may recall you told me you used an IR gun to measure air temps a while back? Clearly you cannot measure air temps with an IR gun? Do I need to find the quote? Please do not attack me I was careful not to make too many waves with you. You demonstrate the issue RHPs are poorly understood. I have used one form or another for going on 20 years I know what they can and can't do. Your claims do not follow the laws of physics.

Is this gonna happen again!!

Everyone, Please don't turn this into another arguement; things were going so well after this morning....

Kite, we did this all last winter and like I said I refuse to get into this with you again. ? You were the one who posted my name in your comment not me, so in the future leave my name out of your comments. I will gladly answer any ones questions that ask to the best of my knowledge, but I owe you no explainations and feel no need to answer yours.It is very frustrating when I cant even post without you always publically broadcasting that I am wrong. Did you see me busting you out the other day when you laid into that kid who was setting up his tank before he got his snake and you got on his case about no thermostat, when in fact he stated it was in the mail. Let me guess you weren't wrong then either?? You are not the "authority " or the only opinion !

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Is this gonna happen again!!

Everyone, Please don't turn this into another arguement; things were going so well after this morning....

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No its not. I have no intention of this getting out of control. I am done. I said my peace and its over. I just get tired of this guy always shadowing my comments and publically trying to make me look like a fool, As anyone in my place would. All I wanted to do is shared my experiences with other users. The op asked about a product that I use and I answered and all of the sudden I see my name show up in some ones post saying what I said was impossible. This has been going on for 6 months with him now.... sad!!!

I am just going to state a fact or two. Based in physics.

Objects closer to a heat source are hotter than objects farther away. Based on an inverse square equation the same as light. That means there is no way to have the top of a hide cooler than the bottom with an RHP. I have argued this over and over it is a very simple idea easily proved. My problem with my test enclosure the top of the hide is hotter than the floor beside it. The height does not effect the way EM waves travel.

Air moves as it is heated mixes and changes. In a small space it will not stratify and rarely does so horizontally. 8ºF is in error the measurement under the RHP is likely face of the probe not the air. The probe must be shielded to read the air under a RHP or it needs to be powered down for a few min. This is a common error and leads many to claim air is dramatically changed by an RHP some have claimed as much as 20ºF increase in air temps. 4-6 likely, 20º unlikely. If it did increase the ambient temp this dramatically RHPs could not be used in rooms 80ºF.

The objects inside the enclosure make a huge difference, the colour and mass in particular. White glossy surfaces reflect IR, matte black absorbs IR. This also is simple to prove, but still it is debated. I believe that is what I was to confirm with Bob, the silly theory.

RHPs will heat objects and they will lift a few degrees, not the massive amounts some claim. There have been those taken in by such claims purchased gear and then found it failed to do the what was promised drastically change ambient air temps.

My advise is easy try fluorescent lights first. They cost a fraction to buy a fraction to run and heat air not objects. They change ambient air temps where few other things do. If that doesn't work try RHPs. I 100% suggest them in arboreal and semi arboreal set ups they work perfectly. KISS , the simplest solution is often the best.

It is the silliest debate I have ever had all the points I make are common sense.