Espresso Project... finally proving out?

I agree with Donna.

I think there is a good chance the original sire is a pewter, and the odd looking female hatchling looks a LOT like a pewter.

I've never seen a pastel that looked like the original sire, not ever. But an adult pewter, lots of similarity there. Perhaps the seller of the sire didn't know what they had ?

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I agree with Donna.

I think there is a good chance the original sire is a pewter, and the odd looking female hatchling looks a LOT like a pewter.

I've never seen a pastel that looked like the original sire, not ever. But an adult pewter, lots of similarity there. Perhaps the seller of the sire didn't know what they had ?

Gale

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:confusd:

I feel as though you guys must be looking at a different snake, ha ha! (I don't mean that as an insult -- I am just trying to see what you're seeing!)

I don't think I have ever seen a pewter that looked like that sire ... I could definitely see him as being a something (other than just pastel), but I just don't see pewter ..?

The original "odd" offspring has pewter traits that I can see, for sure, especially in that 2nd photo, and the triple baby sure looks a lot like a savannah pewter to me. I just don't see those same traits in the sire ...?? (I also don't really see cinnamon in the mother, either, but ..??)

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Originally Posted by rdoyle225

Espresso x Pastel x Mojave - "Pastavo":

is hot :bow::bow::bow::bow:

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x1000 :gj::O

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

:confusd:

I feel as though you guys must be looking at a different snake, ha ha! (I don't mean that as an insult -- I am just trying to see what you're seeing!)

I don't think I have ever seen a pewter that looked like that sire ... I could definitely see him as being a something (other than just pastel), but I just don't see pewter ..?

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The trick is an adult pewter. It doesn't look anything like a young pewter, but I've seen a handful of adults and while not identical, there are enough similarities I could see it being a low quality pewter. There is a lot of room for variation in morphs remember. I could be way off base, but I think it is a possibility.

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

The trick is an adult pewter. It doesn't look anything like a young pewter, but I've seen a handful of adults and while not identical, there are enough similarities I could see it being a low quality pewter. There is a lot of room for variation in morphs remember. I could be way off base, but I think it is a possibility.

Gale

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I concede that it's definitely possible -- especially looking at the dam, who doesn't look much like a cinny or black pastel at all to me, and the babies in question, who definitely look pewter-ish to me -- but I just don't quite see it ...

I think the thing of it is, when I think of a low-quality adult pewter, I think of a brown snake. I've seen plenty of adult pewters that were almost a patternless brown. But, the brown seems to come from the blushing as a baby getting darker as the animal ages and becoming brown. What I keep sticking on about that guy being a pewter is that he just doesn't seem to have the blushing to be a pewter. His daughter does ... The triple definitely does ... I just don't see it in him ..?

This is the least blushy, most "normal" looking pewter I can find a picture of (middle of the 2nd row, right under the really pretty caramel). To me, it still looks way more "pewter-y" than the pastel sire ...

http://myballpython.com/breeders.html

The clincher is the one hatchling that absolutely, positively, IS a cinnamon or black pastel. It has the characteristic 'cinnie snout'. You cannot get a cinnamon in the clutch unless one of the parents carried that gene, which means that is not a pastel, it absolutely HAS TO BE a pewter.

I know that's a disappointment, but there it is. That 'Pastavo' is a pewter mojave. It's the hottest pewter mojave I've ever seen, but that's GOT to be what it is. I've seen some photos of pewter mojaves with black outlining, but usually only on the dorsal area--this one has bold black outlining everywhere, and he looks spectacular, but I do not see any reason to believe that he has a new gene in him.

The line is definitely worth working with, but it's all known genes.

looks like breeding back to a different normal is in order?

Just to clarify....

The pastel male is defiantly a pastel male, not a pewter. He was born in 2002 (Pewters were first made in 2003, so obviously he can't be one) but he is just a really nice Graziani pastel male. He has produced dozens of babies over the year, and never any other pewter or cinnamon looking babies.

The "normal" female has only produced so far the one "Pastelo" (the pewter looking female, which is a pastel espresso). We did the same pairing last year, but didn't get any other different looking babies. She tends to throw very light, reduced/clean patterned normals. Pretty much the opposite of what she looks like (extremely dark). Cinnamon's were first produced in 2002, she was bought in 1996.
Edit: First cinnamon was found in a wc shipment in 1997 by Greg Grazaini.)

Logically, it makes way more sense that the (likely WC) female is carrying the espresso gene over the captive bred male. However, it could be a random mutation? Most people assumed in 2006 when the Pastelo was produced, that it was a random incident (maybe from heat fluctuation), and wouldn't be genetic. Obviously when we bred her to the mojave, we proved she's carrying something besides the pastel gene.

What is this gene? Obviously was suspect it's like the cinnamon and black pastel genes. Meaning we suspect the super form will be a black snake....obviously hoping it might be a line that doesn't have the kinking/duck bill problems that the current supers can have. The Pastelo female will not be bred this year to gain back her weight, but the next plans will be to breed back to see try and see the super form. Then we will bred it to cinnamon to see if it's compatible.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...53134161_n.jpg

This was a photo when the espresso first hatched before its shed (so obviously it lost some of the light coloration, but in comparison to a normal).

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I agree with Donna.

I think there is a good chance the original sire is a pewter, and the odd looking female hatchling looks a LOT like a pewter.

I've never seen a pastel that looked like the original sire, not ever. But an adult pewter, lots of similarity there. Perhaps the seller of the sire didn't know what they had ?

Gale

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The first pewter was born in 2003, the original sire was purchased in Canada from Regius Co in 2004. I highly doubt a pewter would be in Canada at that time for $2500. It was the previous owner's main Pastel breeder, nothing else popped out that looked anything like the odd female. We even bred him and nothing happened. It's either bad odds if he was a pewter or it's not him at all.

We just bred a Fire to the original female this year and again nothing odd came out. Again it's probably bad odds but this is my theory (it will sound far fetched but it's the fact that it's not impossible): All mutations are spontaneous, it's how they came to be in the first place. Could it very well be a spontaneous new line of cinnamon and or black pastel that was crossed with the pastel gene as it appeared which represents the odd female?

Very interesting...perhaps what's happened then is a spontaneous mutation! I do think it's a black pastel, however--look at it. It also has the snout changes, so it will be prone to duckbilling.