Larry doesn't know anything?

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Originally Posted by evan385

. He has spent weeks at a time in countries such as South America, Brazil, Africa, and other Latin and tropical countries out in the field doing research. Learning as much as he could about anything that he could. Catching known species of snakes and other exotics as well as searching for new species.
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When did South America and Africa become countries?:confused:
I'm only 22, but I've done everything stated above and more. Is he a scientist? What kind of trips were these? What research? I'm honestly curious.

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" He has two-three ball pythons per tank, has been doing it that way for god knows how many years and has never had any problems or seen any stress at all from them. Tell him that ball pythons are solitary he'll say your full of crap and probably tell you about the nests of ball pythons he has found in Africa.

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The term solitary in the animal kingdom means that they are not a group, herd, or pack animal. Ball pythons do not help each other in Africa. They don't hunt in strategic packs, nor do they protect or alert each other. They do not seem to show any form of ' affection' or similar behaviors displayed in social animal groups. This is why many have determined that snakes are not social animals. They only really come into contact during mating season.


So he's talking about multiple nests found together or multiple balls in a nest? Animals can be solitary and nest in the same area. It just means its an ideal location to lay their eggs and not that they're a community animal. Has he observed whether or not these snakes continued to live together after nesting and hatching? The snakes probably went their separate ways after, meaning they are solitary.
If they were social, wouldn't more people know about it by now?

Personally, I don't house my snakes together because I believe that they're solitary animals(because I do). I house them separately to avoid the spreading of illness and mites if some sort of outbreak did occur. It's easier to maintain and observe individual snakes who are infested or sick. If one ball was to regurgitate a small meal, you may not know which snake did it when in a group setting. And while it is not common, cannibalism does occur among snakes. So why put your snakes at risk? Even if its a minimum risk, its still a risk. While these snakes are in our care and captivity, we should be housing these snakes to the best of our ability to avoid all risks.

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I don't know the guy, so I'm not going to judge him. However, there are some things that you mentioned about him that I do not agree with.



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evan, I don't know who Larry is, and I'm sure Larry wouldn't give the square root of a rat's butt to know who I am, but I do know a few things.

1) 70+ years of doing something, doesn't mean you've been doing it right...just means you've been doing it a long time.

2) Running around catching wild snakes in countries like Africa doesn't make you an expert on their captive care...probably doesn't hurt, but doesn't make you an expert.

3) It does not take a Wile Coyote Super Genius to breed BPs in captivity...just read the Breeding Forum long enough and that will become self evident.

4) My great grandparents washed their clothes on a board in the river. Today I wash my clothes in a machine. It's easier and the clothes are cleaner and they last longer. Doesn't make what my great grandparents did wrong...doesn't make me wrong either.

5) The manner in which I keep ball pythons is based on my previous experience, my anecdotal observation, and the advise of those I trust. I can only assume Larry does the same thing. That does not mean I will ever agree that it's ok to house multiple BPs in the same enclosure, but if that's the way he does it, then he should rock on with his bad self.

5) You should take your advise from the sources you trust most. But, I'm not convinced that defending the husbandry ideas of a 70 year old guy who while certainly experienced, has clearly not kept up with modern husbandry science, or clearly does not care, advances the discussion?

In my personal experience I've noticed, "Old Timers" tend to be stuck in their ways. That's not to say they are right or wrong, they just tend to disagree with newer studies and findings. I personally try not to argue or pass judgement on someone strictly by what they say, only how they act as a person. If Larry is a great guy and he disagrees with a lot of information that the masses accept as right or wrong, so what?

When I have someone that has "50 years of experience" and offers me advice, I will accept the advice but not necessarily take it as law. I will do my research and make my best decision based on what I read/hear. Anyone that is quick to call another out and pass judgement on someone because of what they say should take a good look in the mirror.

All that matters is, I treat my animals the way I see fit. You can treat your animals how you see fit. I have nothing to say about it.

[QUOTE/3) It does not take a Wile Coyote Super Genius to breed BPs in captivity...just read the Breeding Forum long enough and that will become self evident.[/QUOTE]

LMAO :p

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I agree with Satomi and Slim

Just want to re-state the fact that just because someone's been doing something for a long time, it doesn't automatically make them an expert. Slim's 4th point is an important one. The way he's been doing things was fine back in his day, but our methods have evolved since then to be MORE beneficial to the animal.

x2 this ---v

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Personally, I don't house my snakes together because I believe that they're solitary animals(because I do). I house them separately to avoid the spreading of illness and mites if some sort of outbreak did occur. It's easier to maintain and observe individual snakes who are infested or sick. If one ball was to regurgitate a small meal, you may not know which snake did it when in a group setting. And while it is not common, cannibalism does occur among snakes. So why put your snakes at risk? Even if its a minimum risk, its still a risk. While these snakes are in our care and captivity, we should be housing these snakes to the best of our ability to avoid all risks.

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Sometimes when people have been doing something a certain way for so long its hard for them to change their idea of it. Or to listen to those with less time invested. Not saying that's what he is doing by any means. Animal husbandry changes all the time. It evolves with the animal to create ideal living conditions. 20 years ago I saw some crazy things the way reptiles were kept by their owners, today it would be inaccurate to house them in such ways. We are constantly improving our husbandry skills to allow the animal to live a longer and as much of a stress free life as possible. If you knowing modern practices, have seen the way he does things currently and believe he knows what he's doing then I'm sure he does.

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See evan i told you it would start an argument lol

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Originally Posted by Slim

but if that's the way he does it, then he should rock on with his bad self.

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Nicely put. X2

If he does all this and it works for him, awesome! It's good to have multiple sources of information and insight, you can usually learn a thing or two. However, just because one guy does something that works for him like housing multiple BPs together, does not mean that it's a free card to show to newer keepers to say it's alright. Just like there are some more experienced reptile folk who don't have hot spots and instead keep the room at a constant ambient temp, I really wouldn't recommend it as a practice to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

There's no need to get defensive about members disagreeing with this guy's practices. The simple part of the matter is that there are more pros (mostly in record keeping and preventing diseases) when keeping BPs singly. If you or others wish to do differently, no one is going to stop you. We don't have any right or ability to. I just get worried when issues like this come up because I can see a person newer to BPs looking at multiple housing being ok with an older experienced guy, and rather than putting the health of the animal first they decide to get multiple snakes for one enclosure just to save space. Without the experience to tell if the snake is stressed or not it could be disastrous.

I suppose my whole point is that most of animal keeping, snakes or others, is finding out what works for the animal and you. Naturalistic enclosures, racks, rubbermaid tubs on shelves, the list goes on. There isn't a right or wrong. Personally, I think it's easier to keep my BPs apart. I can keep track of who's doing what. Since I've only been keeping snakes for about 2 years I think it's beneficial that I can tell what snake had a runny stool or other such issues and there aren't any questions as to what snake.

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Originally Posted by Valentine Pirate

If he does all this and it works for him, awesome! It's good to have multiple sources of information and insight, you can usually learn a thing or two. However, just because one guy does something that works for him like housing multiple BPs together, does not mean that it's a free card to show to newer keepers to say it's alright. Just like there are some more experienced reptile folk who don't have hot spots and instead keep the room at a constant ambient temp, I really wouldn't recommend it as a practice to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

There's no need to get defensive about members disagreeing with this guy's practices. The simple part of the matter is that there are more pros (mostly in record keeping and preventing diseases) when keeping BPs singly. If you or others wish to do differently, no one is going to stop you. We don't have any right or ability to. I just get worried when issues like this come up because I can see a person newer to BPs looking at multiple housing being ok with an older experienced guy, and rather than putting the health of the animal first they decide to get multiple snakes for one enclosure just to save space. Without the experience to tell if the snake is stressed or not it could be disastrous.

I suppose my whole point is that most of animal keeping, snakes or others, is finding out what works for the animal and you. Naturalistic enclosures, racks, rubbermaid tubs on shelves, the list goes on. There isn't a right or wrong. Personally, I think it's easier to keep my BPs apart. I can keep track of who's doing what. Since I've only been keeping snakes for about 2 years I think it's beneficial that I can tell what snake had a runny stool or other such issues and there aren't any questions as to what snake.

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Thank you! I agree with this post completely. Now, i've been up for twenty four hours and I am extremely exhausted. I did not want an argument and was not suggesting that anyone change the way they do things. I also never said that I would change the way I do things (what i've learned here) just because of what he says. And again the "countries" was my bad, I work third shift and i'm tired! Can we all agree that everyone has something that works for them and call it a day? Who am I kidding? This is BP.net and people will continue to post regardless. Either way i'm done with this thread.