My luck is terrible

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Originally Posted by Hydrolicious

I did not misunderstand your point; on the contrary, I focused my attention on all of them equally. Did you read my post, or just skim through it? Regardless, I understand now that you decided to focus on one thing.

I didn't have the money for a culture(it was $120) nor an x-ray($180). They did request that I pay for one, but I couldn't so they opted for amikacin. They didn't mention anything about feeding, as far as I can recall. They did mention potential kidney damage, but said I didn't have to worry because it was only 1 unit every 3 days.

So from all the worry here, I gather that I was under-informed. Am I right in this regard, then?

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Digestion requires, among other things, water, and it requires the production of uric acid which is work that the kidneys need to do.

A sick snake on a medication that can stress the renal system means that you need to do everything possible to ensure that your snake does not suffer kidney damage during treatment. One of the safest ways to insure that is to fast your snake. You have started down a road that is going to be very difficult for your snake - a harsh medication and being stabbed with a needle every 72 hours. There is a good chance that the stress of all this may change it's drinking habits or make it prone to other ailments. That is why it is imperative that you allow for those changes and also make choices that guarantee that you will only be doing one round of medication.

Additionally, any antibiotic will deplete the good bacteria along with the bad, impairing the bacteria in the digestive system that aids in the processing of food.

While I do not understand why the vet would have wanted to do an x-ray, it would have been wise to allow him to do a culture. Not only would this have pinpointed the bacteria responsible, but also which antibiotic it would be most effective in treating it. Such a culture may have shown that a less hard-core antibiotic could have been used - it may have even shown that no infection was present.

It would have also guaranteed only one round of treatment.

If your snake indeed has scale rot and an URI, then something in his environment is off and it's not low humidity - I can guarantee you that. However, from the pic of the rot and the description of the one symptom you posted, I'm not sure he had either. The fact that your vet would pinpoint the cause to a non-cause is concerning.

Snakes can click for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with bacterial infections and depending on the animal, you may see some fluid/saliva when you open their mouths. If that saliva is near the glottis, it may appear bubbly during respiration.

So a few extra $$$ on a culture may have saved the money for the antibiotics and 30 days of jabbing the animal with a needle filled with a strong medication.

Were you under informed? Some vets will both insist on a culture and also take the time to explain to you why it is a critical step in the process. I would only do business with vets that ensure that you fully understand the importance of this step.

Can we find a way to upload ur brain to the internet so i can download it Skiploder??? ;P I also wasn't told to fast and i did get a culture and the same med... now my vet worries me!

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Originally Posted by Atherosdragon

I also wasn't told to fast and i did get a culture and the same med... now my vet worries me!

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If your vet cultured, then your snake had a bacterial infection that was susceptible to amikacin. I wouldn't worry about your vet - next time you see visit you may want to ask him if he/she has any concerns about amikacin and renal toxicity. If he wonders why you are questioning, just explain that both the Merck and the Veterinary Formulary both recommend concurrent fluid administration and list it as a nephrotoxin. See how he responds to that.

All of the aminoglycosides (of which Amikacin is one) are potentially toxic to the renal system. Amikacin is considered the safest one for systemic use, however it is still eliminated in the kidneys. In the case of treating a large colubrid with a higher metabolism, I was directed to inject IP fluid therapy along with the amikacin.

In general, when dosing a snake with meds every few days, feeding becomes tricky - even without hydration worries or stress on the kidneys. The simple fact that you will be manhandling and injecting an animal during digestion carries the risk of a regurge. Unless the animal desperately needs to eat, a safe course of action is to NOT feed it while treating it.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

If your vet cultured, then your snake had a bacterial infection that was susceptible to amikacin. I wouldn't worry about your vet - next time you see visit you may want to ask him if he/she has any concerns about amikacin and renal toxicity. If he wonders why you are questioning, just explain that both the Merck and the Veterinary Formulary both recommend concurrent fluid administration and list it as a nephrotoxin. See how he responds to that.

All of the aminoglycosides (of which Amikacin is one) are potentially toxic to the renal system. Amikacin is considered the safest one for systemic use, however it is still eliminated in the kidneys. In the case of treating a large colubrid with a higher metabolism, I was directed to inject IP fluid therapy along with the amikacin.

In general, when dosing a snake with meds every few days, feeding becomes tricky - even without hydration worries or stress on the kidneys. The simple fact that you will be manhandling and injecting an animal during digestion carries the risk of a regurge. Unless the animal desperately needs to eat, a safe course of action is to NOT feed it while treating it.

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From what you've told me and how knowledgeable you seem to be, I guess I won't be feeding my snake during the injections. It does make sense, and I got his last feeding out of the way so he should be all good.

I did however point out other symptoms to the vet that started appearing shortly after I posted this topic, which included face rubbing and minor stargazing. Clicking was not his only symptom. He has since stopped with all of those(I do notice clicking, though) and he's been on his hotspot ever since I got back from the vet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Digestion requires, among other things, water, and it requires the production of uric acid which is work that the kidneys need to do.

A sick snake on a medication that can stress the renal system means that you need to do everything possible to ensure that your snake does not suffer kidney damage during treatment. One of the safest ways to insure that is to fast your snake. You have started down a road that is going to be very difficult for your snake - a harsh medication and being stabbed with a needle every 72 hours. There is a good chance that the stress of all this may change it's drinking habits or make it prone to other ailments. That is why it is imperative that you allow for those changes and also make choices that guarantee that you will only be doing one round of medication.

Additionally, any antibiotic will deplete the good bacteria along with the bad, impairing the bacteria in the digestive system that aids in the processing of food.

While I do not understand why the vet would have wanted to do an x-ray, it would have been wise to allow him to do a culture. Not only would this have pinpointed the bacteria responsible, but also which antibiotic it would be most effective in treating it. Such a culture may have shown that a less hard-core antibiotic could have been used - it may have even shown that no infection was present.

It would have also guaranteed only one round of treatment.

If your snake indeed has scale rot and an URI, then something in his environment is off and it's not low humidity - I can guarantee you that. However, from the pic of the rot and the description of the one symptom you posted, I'm not sure he had either. The fact that your vet would pinpoint the cause to a non-cause is concerning.

Snakes can click for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with bacterial infections and depending on the animal, you may see some fluid/saliva when you open their mouths. If that saliva is near the glottis, it may appear bubbly during respiration.

So a few extra $$$ on a culture may have saved the money for the antibiotics and 30 days of jabbing the animal with a needle filled with a strong medication.

Were you under informed? Some vets will both insist on a culture and also take the time to explain to you why it is a critical step in the process. I would only do business with vets that ensure that you fully understand the importance of this step.

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The only thing I can think of is the few times I bathed him around the 17-20th when he was shedding, which may have something to do with both.

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Originally Posted by Hydrolicious

From what you've told me and how knowledgeable you seem to be, I guess I won't be feeding my snake during the injections. It does make sense, and I got his last feeding out of the way so he should be all good.

I did however point out other symptoms to the vet that started appearing shortly after I posted this topic, which included face rubbing and minor stargazing. Clicking was not his only symptom. He has since stopped with all of those(I do notice clicking, though) and he's been on his hotspot ever since I got back from the vet.

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If he does indeed have an RI, and given the fact the he needs injections for the next month, I'd forego everything but water until he's done.

If his weight is good, he'll be fine. If he's a young snake I would check his weight halfway through the treatment and also check his overall condition.

You can add some powdered Benebac to his water while he's on the meds. It will make sure that his digestive system maintains it's beneficial bacterial during the antibiotic treatment.

Is he clicking all the time?

The only thing the baths could have done is stress him out. Maybe this lowered his immunity resistance - maybe not.

It's amazing that the amikacin cleared up all the other symptoms so quickly. I'd go as far to maintain that they were normal or even transitory behaviors for this snake.

What people often claim is stargazing is normal. True signs of neurological damage or even changes in head posturing while afflicted with an RI are completely different.

As for the head rubbing, this can be normal behavior and in the absence of signs of discharge, I would not rush to attribute it to an RI.

He's 386 grams, but that was a weighing at the vet 3 days after I fed him a small rat. He looks like he has a healthy size normally, though. No visible ribs or anything, and he has a good set of muscles on him.

I don't know where you're assuming he didn't have discharge from, though. There were some bubbles in that brief period between the vet appointment and the first injection around the edges of his mouth(not mucous, though).

All of the symptoms I've told you about aren't normal for him. Once in a while I do notice him breath, but stuff like clicking and head rubbing aren't normal for him. I pay a lot of attention to my lil' guy. I'm his watchdog, in a way. I can't hear him clicking through my tank, it's really light. If I hold him, but not necessarily up to my ear, I can hear him make these noises. Granted, I'm avoiding handling for the duration of the injections.

I do admit I'm surprised he stopped all of those after the first shot, though.

I'm supposed to give him another shot today...

Anyway, I really appreciate all of the advice you've been giving me here.

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Originally Posted by Hydrolicious

He's 386 grams, but that was a weighing at the vet 3 days after I fed him a small rat. He looks like he has a healthy size normally, though. No visible ribs or anything, and he has a good set of muscles on him.

I don't know where you're assuming he didn't have discharge from, though. There were some bubbles in that brief period between the vet appointment and the first injection around the edges of his mouth(not mucous, though).

All of the symptoms I've told you about aren't normal for him. Once in a while I do notice him breath, but stuff like clicking and head rubbing aren't normal for him. I pay a lot of attention to my lil' guy. I'm his watchdog, in a way. I can't hear him clicking through my tank, it's really light. If I hold him, but not necessarily up to my ear, I can hear him make these noises. Granted, I'm avoiding handling for the duration of the injections.

I do admit I'm surprised he stopped all of those after the first shot, though.

I'm supposed to give him another shot today...

Anyway, I really appreciate all of the advice you've been giving me here.

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Your right - I assumed from your first post that the bubbles you saw were in the mouth - not at the edges.

Are there still bubbles? It would be amazing if those were gone after the first injection.

There were some in the back of his throat at the time of the post, but I guess I was too vague on where they were - my bad.

I opened up his lips a bit, and the teeth look a bit moist, but there are NO bubbles around the edges anymore. I'll check the inside of his mouth in a few days, he's going to be stressed as it is after his shot today.

Also, he's still clicking continuously, with a bit of a... I wouldn't call it a weez, as I'm not sure what that sounds like in snakes, but more like a strained breath every now and then.

Speaking of improvement, I noticed him leave his hotspot for something other than a drink for the first time in a while. When I woke up, the substrate on the cool end was overturned. So, it seems like he's starting to resume his normal hide-switching behavior.

Ah, I just got a call from the vet to check up on my snake. Guess I need to keep you updated on that, too.

The reptile vet wasn't there today, so they forwarded me to her at home(apparently she was on call). Anyway, I voiced my concerns about the fasting issue, and she said that while amikacin can cause kidney damage, there's nothing to worry about in healthy snakes that are well nourished and hydrated. I suppose that's why she didn't mention that in the office, because there were no worries on her part. She also said because the case of RI was so small, there wouldn't be much stress from the medication.