New to forum and heating question kinda urgent

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LGray23

Heat lights do nothing but make the ambient temps too hot and suck humidity. Belly heat is much more beneficial as it aides in digestion. Any UTH needs to be regulated with a thermostat, but I'd switch up for sure. Here is some advice I just gave someone today regarding common husbandry issues.

"You have to upload pictures to a hosting site such as photobucket.com or tinypic.com, you then copy and paste the IMG link into the box here, it is labelled the one for forum boards. It sounds like your temps are too high, but you still have not mentioned how you are reading temps. I am going to assume it's with the stick on analog guages, which are dangerously inaccurate. Just a few pointers to help you out okay?

Being a baby ball python, the tank she is in shouldn't be any larger than 20 gallon long. Ball pythons like small tight spaces, and that includes hides. There should be two hides, one on the hot side and one on the cool side.

Belly heat is much more beneficial to snakes, as it aides in digestion. Heat lamps not only suck the humidity out of the tank, but they get very hot and generally heat up the tank too much. I suggest ditching the lamps and getting an under tank heater and a thermostat.

Thermostats are necessary for UTHs. UTHs get VERY hot, and even if they don't feel hot to our touch, it is far too hot for a snake. The hot side should remain between 88-92, and the cool side between 78-82.
Thermostats can range from useful and cheap to top of the line. Here is the cheapest one I would recommend.
http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MTPR...3&sr=8-1-spell

You should invest in a digital thermometer to read cool/hot side temps and humidity.
http://www.amazon.com/Chaney-Instrum...6786276&sr=8-4
You place the unit on the cool side, and place the probe on the hot side. This way it reads both temps and humidity inside the tank all in one unit.

You may also be interested in getting a temp gun. They are a great tool for any reptile owner as they read surface temps with great accuracy, however they are not necessary.
http://tempgun.com/

You may also want to consider blacking out the sides and back on the tank to help her feel more secure. You can buy black adhesive Con-Tact paper from Home Depot, one roll is $6 and that's all you need. It really makes a considerable difference in their security.

I also suggest covering about 1/2 to 2/3 of the screen top, to help hold in humidity. You can use anything from aluminum foil to plexi glass.

After you've made some changes, I suggest leaving her alone for a full week. Once she has settled in her new home, try feeding at night. If she doesn't eat then, I'd be surprised Good luck! Hope this helps..."

---

I have a digital gun Im checking temps with and its a 10 gallan tank.

Theres nothing wrong with using a heat lamp, in my opinion, if your using a dimmer, a red/blue bulb (they cant see it) and a temp gun to monitor it.

A UTH only does so much. My room gets as cool as 60-65 degrees. Way too cold for a bp. So i use my heat lamp to get the ambient and cool side temperatures up. Like an unmonitored UTH, heat lamps can put off way too much heat. So go buy a cheap, plug in dimmer at Lowes or Home Depot for $12.

I got rid of the 75 watt bulb and bought a UTH for a 10 gallon tank. It only makes the substrate about 90 degrees. I also bought a white full spectrum bulb but the ambient temp in the tank has dropped down to 75. this is measured in the middle of the tank towards the top between the hot and cold zone. Is this too cold? Should I ad a 50 watt red bulb to help heat the air?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

The first thing is an IR gun CANNOT measure glass temps at all. It reflects to much and is quite random.

snakes will move when they get too hot the trouble is caused by low ambient temps and high direct temps The core remains cool while the skin burns. Belly top or back it makes no real difference the most natural is over head however just like the sun.

The issues with heat lamps are real however, they can easily amp up the temps to extreme amounts and do mess with humidiy although temps beat humidity every time improper temps cause death either to high or too low. Low humidity is an issue but not nearly as critical.

The snake should NEVER be able to reach the heat source directly, especially lamps as they get instant burn zone almost upon turning them on. The first thing is to make sure the snake cannot ever reach the lamp. The second is temps a lamp in a small enclosure is hard to build a gradient you need to have a gradient there are three temps to be concerned about. Cool end surface temp 78-82 the optimal being 80. Warm end (not really hot...) surface 90-94ºF 90 being a good safe temp. The last is the ambient air should be around 80-83ºF it can be measured around the middle of the enclosure half way up the sides (unless it is quite tall then 1/3 is fine)

How ever you maintain these temps doesn't matter as long as the animal cannot reach the heat source at all. A thermostat is the best way to maintain these in a variable temperature room (if your room temps change at all) if you are using a plastic tub I'd shy away from the on off type as there is no mass to take the edge off the temperature spikes that are produced by the on off type t-stats. (on/off like a hydrofarm..)

---

Very nice post.

The common misbelief is that belly heat is necessary, when it really isn't. It's often the most efficient means to raise the core temperature of the animal, then again, sometimes it's not. It has a big drawback too - mainly it does diddly for ambient temps. I'd rather my snake have an ambient of 82 to 84 degrees in order to easily maintain his core than a 90 degree hotspot in a 72 degree room. Nonetheless, your point is a good one - it's the core temperature of the snake that matters.

...and good point on the humidity. People beat their heads against the wall trying to maintain a "global" humidity in an enclosure, when they can make life easier for themselves by providing a humid hide.

You hit the nail on the heat with heat lamps, the biggest issue is that oftentimes people do not protect their snakes from contacting the heat source. The second most prevalent issue is that they mis-size the wattage for the size of the enclosure.

id say if your room gets that cold(65)and the ambient is 75 a uth heat lamp combo would be in order.
everyone is already giving good advice on heating tips with the thermometers,thermostats,and dimmers but i didnt see this question.
what is the top of your tank?screen lid?
if so i would make a modification to cover some of the top to keep humidity and heat in.
thick plexi glass or two thinner pieces doubled or acrylic work good.youd need to cut an opening in one side to allow the heat lamp to shine in and some kind of vent on the cool side.
i dont know what kind of substrate your using but id suggest some cypress mulch mixed with some sphagnum moss and pieces of moss put in other areas of the tank.that would help greatly with humidity especially with a heatlamp.its crucial to have a dimmer on that heat lamp with your uth with such a small tank.you dont want that lamp to mess with the belly heat provided by your uth.within a day or two with all your tools and some patience and possibly alot of adjusting dials and placement youll find what works for your tank everybodies situation is different and not everything works for everyone. oh and offer a humid hide, a tupperware hide with lid,a hole cut in and smoothed out for entry and some more moist moss in it they love those especially during shed.
keep us posted


ahhh skiploder beat me while i was typing on the humid hide!!!!

Op,
It is something of a balancing act. Ambient temps come from the primary heat source and the room temps. The cooler the room temps the more difficult the ambient temps. The first thing you might try is to try to control the heat loss, a towel or plastic (plexy sheet) might help a lot that way just cover the top (not over anything hot) and see what happens. The back and sides could also be covered, a heavy towel or blanket will do the job. If that helps then you can look for a better option than a blanket.

Skip, thanks, I bow to your logic. All of mine are sitting at 82 for the most part, so you range is a fair one I have seen little discussions of ambient temps in publications (if you have any I'd love to read them!) so I have been estimating a reasonable range. The trend to keep snakes hotter and hotter is a bit alarming so I tend to suggest on the lower end of the range. A pleasure as always. Sorry for the hyjack...
A

Remember ambient temps cannot be measured with an IR gun, and trying to measure glass with an IR gun cannot be trusted to be remotely correct do to refraction. IR guns only work correctly pointed at non reflective surfaces.

yeah skiploders a g:handshake

Ok so the substrate temp is what I measured with the infared gun. Is the substrate temp or the glass temp what you wanna measure on the hot side? The infared gun shows 101 on the glass under the substrate but I know that temp isnt correct due to reflection. The substrate temp measures 84. What keeps the snake from digging down and getting burned on the glass if you measure the substrate temp and if you set the temp so the glass is 92 then the substrate is to cold isnt it? :confused:

my vet said put the thermometer probe (or aim with your ir)on the substrate.thats where your snake spends his time.if he has hides and the temps are right above the substrate and in his hides he shouldnt feel the need to burrow to the glass to seek out more warmth.and a good layer (2"-3") of substrate would help in keeping him away from the dangerous glass temps.the glass is always gonna be hotter than above the substrate.but with the thicker layer of substrate less heat will get through and adjustments will be necessary.you could also use a thinner layer of substrate to compromise between the glass temp and sub temp as more heat would get through the substrate then having a hazard zone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

Op,
It is something of a balancing act. Ambient temps come from the primary heat source and the room temps. The cooler the room temps the more difficult the ambient temps. The first thing you might try is to try to control the heat loss, a towel or plastic (plexy sheet) might help a lot that way just cover the top (not over anything hot) and see what happens. The back and sides could also be covered, a heavy towel or blanket will do the job. If that helps then you can look for a better option than a blanket.

Skip, thanks, I bow to your logic. All of mine are sitting at 82 for the most part, so you range is a fair one I have seen little discussions of ambient temps in publications (if you have any I'd love to read them!) so I have been estimating a reasonable range. The trend to keep snakes hotter and hotter is a bit alarming so I tend to suggest on the lower end of the range. A pleasure as always. Sorry for the hyjack...
A

Remember ambient temps cannot be measured with an IR gun, and trying to measure glass with an IR gun cannot be trusted to be remotely correct do to refraction. IR guns only work correctly pointed at non reflective surfaces.

---

I have a hard drive full of journal pdfs - there was one regarding the core temperatures for python regius and what temps are required for incubating, metabolizing, etc. When I find it, I'll PM it to you.

A boid that isn't being stuffed with food or isn't trying to ovulate or incubate has a fairly steady core temperature requirement to go about it's daily functions.

Reptiles are ectothermic. While we all mouth that phrase and claim we understand what it means, when we get into discussions about optimum thermoregulation zones, sometimes I wonder if we do.

Ectothermic animals cannot self regulate - they must regulate through outside environmental sources of heating and cooling. The hot end of the cage is used to raise the core temperature and the cool end of the cage to lower it. I think we are all clear on that.

A snake that requires a core temperature of 82 in a cage where the ambient temperature is 72 degrees must almost constantly use the hot and cool ends to maintain it's core temp. range. While they ultimately reach a target temp., the somewhat temperate ambient air will cool it more rapidly than an ambient temp. closer to it's core requirement.

That's why ambient temperature is so important - it allows the animal to spend most of it's time in it's metabolic "sweet spot", instead of continually trying to regulate between heating and cooling. It lessens the stress on the animal and closes the window for stress-related illnesses.

It's also the answer to the questions that arise regarding why some snakes spend so much time in their hot spots, their cold areas or, in the case of the animal who is kept in it's ambient wheelhouse - neither. The time is also related to the size of the animal- a full grown python will usually heat up slower and subsequently cool slower in the same temperature conditions as a neonate - hence the critical importance of temperature in young snakes.

Remember, pythons generally have a hard time detecting extreme levels of heat on their ventral surface (read "belly side"). It's actually rare that a ball python will burn itself under a radiant heat source. So while belly heat is cheap and somewhat effective for a hot spot, if unmodulated or if the controller malfunctions, it also represents a sizable risk for thermal burns.