Pine Bedding Bad for Rats?

I've been breeding my own feeders for the past 2+ years and have not had any issues with kiln dried pine shavings.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

What source are you using to verify? Please provide it.

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I will admit, i have never really looked at the references from people telling me that pine and cedar were bad. After you challenged my sources i decided that i would take a look at the scientific literature and see what i could find. One study by Ayars et al., 1989. (The toxicity of constituents of cedar and pine woods to pulmonary epithelium), shows that compounds in these woods have the ability to heavily damage tracheal and lung epithelial tissues. That being said, I could see how kiln dried pine and cedar may reduce that amounts of these compounds, as their boiling points are in the range of 200-300 degrees Celsius. This study was directed towards the issue of RIs developing in PEOPLE IN WOOD MILLS.

Another study conducted by Buddaraju and Van :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:, 2003 showed that pine bedding causes an alteration of liver enzyme levels in rats, and this will have implications on drug metabolism and endocytosis (may have an implication on immune function?).

I actually also found one study saying that pine, cedar, and carefresh all had no negative effects on mice.. maybe kiln dried pine isnt so bad after all

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Originally Posted by PghBall

I've been breeding my own feeders for the past 2+ years and have not had any issues with kiln dried pine shavings.

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Not disagreeing about kiln dried pine here. . . BUT. . .

i am curious how long mice actually stay in your possession, alive?

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

Not disagreeing about kiln dried pine here. . . BUT. . .

i am curious how long mice actually stay in your possession, alive?

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Out of all the answers to this thread, why is this the one you question?

here the proof with references

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

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In mice these enzymes started rising after only 24 hours exposure to cedar shavings and only returned to normal when the mice were away from the shavings for 12 days (8). If pine or cedar shavings are heat-treated or soaked in a solvent, so that some of the phenols are removed, the effects are not as great, but still occur (8, 9).

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A study done in 1991 (1) found that mice kept on pine shavings for only a month had a more highly reactive immune response. Mice kept on pine shavings for 8 months developed abnormally enlarged livers. This same study found that mice housed on pine shavings also had a decrease in reproduction rate. When given free choice of beddings, rats and mice reject pine and cedar shavings in favor of any other type of beddings.

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I sell all of the other beddings.... Come on out and buy some from me!:D
Me, I'll be using pine until I decide to stop breeding. Been using it for 20+ years with no ill effects. Almost all the "evidence" shown in these studies are from cedar use. When they do mention pine, it's always "slightly higher" or "increased" this or that. And, they are almost all written by xxx, the rat lady. Or, cousin xxx, mousier. Me, I raise rodent for food. They're tasty!
So, if in fact, we are all wrong about using pine...... and the mice or rats are growing larger livers.... who wins? Well, the snakes...:gj: more protein!

here the proof with references

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

In mice these enzymes started rising after only 24 hours exposure to cedar shavings and only returned to normal when the mice were away from the shavings for 12 days (8). If pine or cedar shavings are heat-treated or soaked in a solvent, so that some of the phenols are removed, the effects are not as great, but still occur (8, 9).
A study done in 1991 (1) found that mice kept on pine shavings for only a month had a more highly reactive immune response. Mice kept on pine shavings for 8 months developed abnormally enlarged livers. This same study found that mice housed on pine shavings also had a decrease in reproduction rate. When given free choice of beddings, rats and mice reject pine and cedar shavings in favor of any other type of beddings.

Do you suppose those studies may be skewed to favor the outcome a pet rat keeper would like?

Here's a study for you. I've been doing this, on and off but never completely stopped, for over 40 years. I've been keeping snakes on pine for the same amount of time and breeding them on pine for almost 25. Multiple generations of fat healthy rats and mice and snakes.

The reputation of my animals is excellent. My rodents are top notch as well.

So, my personal decades long experience has lead me to believe, because I have seen it with my own eyes, that while pine that is fresh cut or not dry is not so good, kiln dried is just fine.

I don't have an agenda. I don't need you to use pine. I'm not an advocate for pine usage.

Now, if you can find a truly neutral source that proves kiln dried pine is bad, I'll rethink my decades of experience. So far, I've not seen a single study that's both reputable and non-biased.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Do you suppose those studies may be skewed to favor the outcome a pet rat keeper would like?

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if all these people are lying then i guess so...

Hold on a minute...

I'll quick make a website and put all kinds of references on it, then post it.

I think I'll take my own chances, and like wilomn said, my decades of experience.
To each their own. Like I said before, pet stores sell the expensive stuff too....it's your choice.

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Originally Posted by jasbus

Hold on a minute...

I'll quick make a website and put all kinds of references on it, then post it.

I think I'll take my own chances, and like wilomn said, my decades of experience.
To each their own. Like I said before, pet stores sell the expensive stuff too....it's your choice.

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Im going to assume that you didnt look at the references at all. All of the references that I, and one or two other people have posted are from scientific journals. This means that they are peer reviewed primary sources.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Now, if you can find a truly neutral source that proves kiln dried pine is bad, I'll rethink my decades of experience. So far, I've not seen a single study that's both reputable and non-biased.

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Now i want to clearly emphasize here that i am not just trying to argue for the sake of arguing, im just curious as to what you guys consider a reputable source?

The thought of a non biased source is an interesting concept here though, because it is quite valuable to consider why certain studies are done, and what the motive is.