Breeding siblings

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

All living things are affected by inbreeding to include reptiles. Genetics are the same no matter what. People are going to believe what they want to and do what they want to. So if you want to believe that reptiles are different then by all means go ahead and treat them like they are different. Just don't cry when you are producing freezer animals!

It’s too easy to research a topic with today’s technology. If you do a quick search you can read many articles discussing the facts of inbreeding.

Even the big breeders will tell you that it is better to out cross than to inbreed. They have bred enough to see what the results are.

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really? can you post links or references to any of this information? I have done my research and found almost just the opposite. Sure constant line breeding may have an effect, but any proof of negative effects after a generation or 2?

and as for your big breeders... http://snakebytes.tv/index.php?optio...=151&Itemid=14

will also add my rats are quite a few generations in of being inbreed and have yet to see any negative effects. still producing big healthy litters

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Originally Posted by eracer

They have 'X' and 'Y' chromosomes, don't they?

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Actually, they have 'Z' and 'W' chromosomes. Their genetic difference from mammals, especially as related to reproduction, is pretty significant.

On the subject of inbreeding being detrimental, consider the multiple lines of inbreeding that go on in INSECT COLONIES for one. Ten, twenty generations of cockroach or cricket or mealworm feeders?

Or how about rat feeders? I guarantee you that each pair isn't always of a further relation than second cousin.

In fact, incest in humans is generally looked down on more for moral/societal reasons rather than factual biologically detrimental reasons.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

really? can you post links or references to any of this information? I have done my research and found almost just the opposite. Sure constant line breeding may have an effect, but any proof of negative effects after a generation or 2?

and as for your big breeders... http://snakebytes.tv/index.php?optio...=151&Itemid=14

will also add my rats are quite a few generations in of being inbreed and have yet to see any negative effects. still producing big healthy litters

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um sure a generation or two by the exporter in Africa, then by the breeder whom you bought from, then a couple more from the person you sell to, then a few more, and then more.......get where I'm going? Back breeding once or twice to prove out a line is one thing and isn't quite so bad, but breeding siblings together can be a whole lot different.

RDR clutch 13

Carmels

Look I can go on but I am not. Like I said you can find all kinds of data on what generations of inbreeding can and will most certainly do. Back breeding is not quite as bad as sib to sib. Like I said though people are going to do what they want to do and turn a deaf ear to every thing else. I have a moral obligation to produce healthy and diverse animals in what ever I breed and sell. I do what I feel is right just as every one else does as they feel.
Peace

Better bring something besides Caramels to the table. It's part of the gene not from inbreeding. This has been known for several years now. Even if outcrossed and unrelated, they can still produce kinked babies. Kinking is common in all lines of Caramels, but more likely in some than in others. I've even seen unrelated hets produce kinked babies. Again, this is not from inbreeding.

As for the Albino Granites, who knows. Could be due to the granite gene. I'm sure that project is still in it's infancy. Look at all the albinos that are still being inbred with no ill effects. I wouldn't be certain this is from inbreeding. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

um sure a generation or two by the exporter in Africa, then by the breeder whom you bought from, then a couple more from the person you sell to, then a few more, and then more.......get where I'm going? Back breeding once or twice to prove out a line is one thing and isn't quite so bad, but breeding siblings together can be a whole lot different.

RDR clutch 13

Carmels

Look I can go on but I am not. Like I said you can find all kinds of data on what generations of inbreeding can and will most certainly do. Back breeding is not quite as bad as sib to sib. Like I said though people are going to do what they want to do and turn a deaf ear to every thing else. I have a moral obligation to produce healthy and diverse animals in what ever I breed and sell. I do what I feel is right just as every one else does as they feel.
Peace

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Originally Posted by eracer

Why can't snakes be affected by the same genetic difficulties as other creatures when siblings interbreed? They have 'X' and 'Y' chromosomes, don't they?

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actually they dont, they have z and w

inbreeding affects different animals different ways. rodents arent even considered inbred til something like the 135 generation of sib x sib breeding.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

um sure a generation or two by the exporter in Africa, then by the breeder whom you bought from, then a couple more from the person you sell to, then a few more, and then more.......get where I'm going? Back breeding once or twice to prove out a line is one thing and isn't quite so bad, but breeding siblings together can be a whole lot different.

RDR clutch 13

Carmels

Look I can go on but I am not. Like I said you can find all kinds of data on what generations of inbreeding can and will most certainly do. Back breeding is not quite as bad as sib to sib. Like I said though people are going to do what they want to do and turn a deaf ear to every thing else. I have a moral obligation to produce healthy and diverse animals in what ever I breed and sell. I do what I feel is right just as every one else does as they feel.
Peace

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i would like you to go on and on, rdrs clutch was bred back to a parent, which you said yourself isn't quite so bad. how far was his animals inbreed? has he bred the animals to other snakes to see if mayb he has a snake with some bad genes? there other possiblities, and missing information. Even if it is cause directly to inbreeding congrads you have 1 example, then You bring up carmels...lol, im not going to touch that one.

you can do what ever you want, but what im after is true information, I think anyone going to out cross when they can, but to say people are turning a deaf ear? sounds like thats what your doing. one bad pairing of snakes doesn't explain the 23908439284 healthy clutches people have produced from sib x sib.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

what im after is true information.

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What you are after is miss-information it would seem. You obviously want every one to tell you that it's ok. To each there own.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Sure constant line breeding may have an effect, but any proof of negative effects after a generation or 2?

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I don't understand? Are you just wanting to argue? You even said it your self? Who said any thing about less than a couple of generations?

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

one bad pairing of snakes doesn't explain the 23908439284 healthy clutches people have produced from sib x sib.

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ok so what about all of the bad clutches and train wrecks that come from those breedings? They do happen. Most of the time no one says anything about them. Oh wait, I guess it was incubation temps right?..... yea about that. Most if not all of the big named breeders have done it enough and most will tell you that it is way better to out cross. Why is that?
Anyways, like I have said. People are going to do what they want to do and most do turn a deaf ear so to say. Denying the fact that bad things happen due to inbreeding is ridiculous. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

All wobbles, kinking, duck-billing, one eye, no eye, cleft lip, organs on the outside, mangled bodies, and clutch after clutch of non thriving babies....etc, etc are all due to temps or just bad genes and has nothing to do with anything else.

It's funny though that when you out cross the supers (cinnies, Black Pastels, Lessers, etc) most of the deformities start to go away.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

What you are after is miss-information it would seem. You obviously want every one to tell you that it's ok. To each there own.


I don't understand? Are you just wanting to argue? You even said it your self? Who said any thing about less than a couple of generations?





ok so what about all of the bad clutches and train wrecks that come from those breedings? They do happen. Most of the time no one says anything about them. Oh wait, I guess it was incubation temps right?..... yea about that. Most if not all of the big named breeders have done it enough and most will tell you that it is way better to out cross. Why is that?
Anyways, like I have said. People are going to do what they want to do and most do turn a deaf ear so to say. Denying the fact that bad things happen due to inbreeding is ridiculous. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

All wobbles, kinking, duck-billing, one eye, no eye, cleft lip, organs on the outside, mangled bodies, and clutch after clutch of non thriving babies....etc, etc are all due to temps or just bad genes and has nothing to do with anything else.

It's funny though that when you out cross the supers (cinnies, Black Pastels, Lessers, etc) most of the deformities start to go away.

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If your so against it they why do you even own snakes. All the snakes in this industry are closely related to one another more than you think. You want clean blood and out-breeding IMPORT your own, dont go buying a new snake from someone else in the US thinking your getting clean blood. As that wont do anything considering their related to a degree.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

If your so against it they why do you even own snakes. All the snakes in this industry are closely related to one another more than you think. You want clean blood and out-breeding IMPORT your own, dont go buying a new snake from someone else in the US thinking your getting clean blood. As that wont do anything considering their related to a degree.

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Realy?

Realy?

I own them because I like them, as I am sure we all do. They aren't that related. That’s an insane comment. There is lots of new blood lines coming into the US every year. Hmm I guess everything is related to a degree unfortunately.



Some one asks for an opinion, and some are givin and people have to get all upset. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

All wobbles, kinking, duck-billing, one eye, no eye, cleft lip, organs on the outside, mangled bodies, and clutch after clutch of non thriving babies....etc, etc are all due to temps or just bad genes and has nothing to do with anything else.

It's funny though that when you out cross the supers (cinnies, Black Pastels, Lessers, etc) most of the deformities start to go away.

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MOST of what you mention is due to the gene. As I said before, even with outcrossed animals and new import blood, these things still pop up. Outcrossing spiders, cinnies, black pastels and caramels does not make the abnormalities disappear. It's part of the gene. If you aren't prepaired for the consequences don't work with the genes.

I bred son to mother Pewters in 2009/10 and had a perfectly normal clutch other than producing two very oddly patterned Super Pewters.

I'll reiterate....snakes are non-migratory animals. We have these morphs because of inbreeding in wild populations. It happens because micro-populations exist withing other micro-populations and these snakes live with inbreeding their entire lives. Breeding sibling to sibling, father to daughter, father to grand daughter and so on. Do some research on feild observations by Frank Retes. You may be enlightened.

By the way, I am in no way trying to come off as harsh. Just stating valid points.