liability issue

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

I agree with you. And if they are all dead, they buyer should be able to easily prove that. Does the buyer think its your fault? What do they think? Just curious...

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the buyer feels it was my obligation to contact "him" and confirm they were sent as I said I would. Since this was not done, the buyer was not waiting for the arrival. The box was left in the heat and the insects died. The buyer has not said that it is all my fault but they haven't accepted any on themselves either.

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I personally feel my liability is less than 1%. I have offered a refund minus the shipping costs already BUT I have requested proof of death via photos to be emailed to me prior to refund given. Buyer doesn't sound too happy the refund is not 100%. And the buyer isn't happy i asked the photos to be in a measuring cup (how I measure roaches for count) to show all are dead, not half or a third. A hundred roaches looks like a lot spread out. 500 could be piled and you wouldn't know how many it was in a good photo. But 9oz of roaches is what i sent.

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I personally check my email a ridiculous amount of times a day, and would have gotten the tracking number (assuming it sent to his email) and knew it was coming, but not everyone is like that. Refund minus shipping is perfectly acceptable, as is requesting proof of death. I wouldn't say it was majority your fault, as the fault lies on you for not letting him know it shipped, and for him for not being on the lookout, or contacting you if it shipped. You did say you'd try your best to ship it.

Any live shipping guarantee requires proof of death of the animal. I personally probably wouldn't have kept the roaches if they were dead, and maybe he didn't either so you may not get a photo. In good faith, if anything, just refund the cost of the roaches and not shipping. You'll probably lose his business though.

Like I said, the liability may be split, but the potential for business loss/gain is all up to you. A small hit now, may see a increase in business in the near future, or it may do nothing.

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Originally Posted by ScubaRyan

If you value the business of selling them, it might be best to chalk it up as a loss and send more, free of charge. Good customer service can only help spread the word (if that's what you would like), but he may just bad mouth you if all you do is request a refund for the dead roaches minus shipping as you did ship it.

If somebody personally said they'd *try their best* to ship it on Monday for a Tuesday delivery, i wouldn't be waiting around unless I got confirmation that the person was indeed sending/sent the package.

Who knows, the loss of some roaches could mean more business if he talks to his friends and gives them your info. If it's expensive to ship them, you could ask for just shipping costs and you would send what he ordered that died + some just to show you value their business. You never specified on the amount of roaches/cost, but if you're trying to expand the business/side job, whatever you want to call it, 1 bad experience can turn away several potential buyers. Remember, its not the truth, but how it's spun!

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problem with all of this is.....right or wrong, I am me. I have a teenage daughter who does stuff that logically I should be upset beyond rage. It doesn't stop her from finding a new way the very next day to do it all over again. I am to a point, yep she should be liable but mistakes do happen. I will have more bugs next month I guess. I am guessing that unless I tell the buyer thank you, give a full refund and probably apologize for everything, somehow I will be the bad guy. I have learned this is possible from a teenage girl who can lose a cell phone, call to have it replaced and then tell me that it is my fault she can not use a work phone to text message her friends with. Or wreck a car and tell me how neglected she is because she doesn't have transportation while it is being fixed.

Now where's that deep sigh icon at when you need it?:please:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

the buyer feels it was my obligation to contact "him" and confirm they were sent as I said I would. Since this was not done, the buyer was not waiting for the arrival. The box was left in the heat and the insects died. The buyer has not said that it is all my fault but they haven't accepted any on themselves either.

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Well...ok, that's makes a little more sense then. That may explain why the buyer wasn't expecting it. I try to think about what would personally make me comfortable. When I bought my snake, which I love dearly, the breeder and i had worked out all of the details and she was overly clear about when she was shipping it and gave me all the tracking info. As part of our written agreement, I had to confirm that I would be available for the delivery and I had to notify her immediately upon arrival of the shipment.

It's begs to wonder then, if the buyer understood that the high temperatures had the ability to destroy the shipment. If the buyer didn't know the product was coming because they were relying entirely on a confirmation from you, and they didn't understand the relative risk of the mis-timing of the shipment....kinda changes things a little bit. I do think your offer to replace the roaches, and they pay for shipping is totally fair though. I still don't see where a 100% refund is in order. You are being completely fair in my view, still.

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I am guessing that unless I tell the buyer thank you, give a full refund and probably apologize for everything, somehow I will be the bad guy.

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You're probably 100% correct! Just like the way people get upgrades for free by complaining over nothing; hey it works, so why not, right?!

You already took the loss of the roaches, just refund him the cost of the roaches so technically you don't lose any money! How much was the shipping if you don't mind me asking? If it's a couple dollars, he'll get over it. He took the risk of having roaches shipped to a hot climate, there's risk in it and the chance for something being dead after sitting at a door all day is pretty obvious!

Well in all honesty, you probably should have informed him that you actually shipped. Though when you didn't he should have contacted you.

I would still say the fault lies mostly with him. However, if I was in the situation I'd offer him a partial refund. He should have been expecting them and should have been checking. You should have told him they were shipped just to verify.

So if I was you I'd offer him 50% back of his purchase price - I think that would be a fair compromise. That's what I'd offer as a seller, and I'd think it fair as a buyer.

I want to take a moment and give props to all in this post...

this is a true discussion....:gj::gj::gj:

very respectful and honest opinions and I appreciate them all...thank you to each of you.

Right now I have provided an email for the buyer to send the requested photos to. I have decided that in my good conscience if the buyer sends suitable photos I will give a 100% refund because I see it like this....


I am basically eating $240 worth of roaches, another $22 isn't gonna make me starve. Then if the buyer has anything negative to say I can't imagine there is anyway I can feel bad about the situation. In the end, that was the point of this post. Not legal jargon, or even business ethics.....personal ethics. Giving what we all feel is truly fair. This might not have been fair to me. I think that would be the buyer's responsibility and ethics to find for themselves about how they should be treating me. This is what I feel I can do to help out a fellow hobbyist I am viewing as made a mistake. I hope the buyer learns from it and maybe is thankful and will pass the karma along.

thank you and take care all.

I think you're doing what's best for your business. I am not one to just sit around and wait on others. I would have hounded you for a shipping date. If I didn't hear from you Friday afternoon, I would have emailed (or called) you and asked what was up.

Thanks again for my order last week. Maybe I'm biased, but I only joined FC for the BOI (initially) and have learned a lot about how this business works. Sorry I didn't get my word in earlier.

Pictures are now received. Yes they are very dead and yes they fried in the sun.

I offered a full refund or full replacement, buyers choice.

immediate refund or replacement shipped Monday for Tuesday delivery

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

Pictures are now received. Yes they are very dead and yes they fried in the sun.

I offered a full refund or full replacement, buyers choice.

immediate refund or replacement shipped Monday for Tuesday delivery

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Good for you. That will get you VERY far in this business. It isn't how you deal with things when they go right, its how you deal with them when they go wrong. :gj: