Breeding with only homozygous snakes.

I've wondered occasionally about the status of wild-type ball pythons in the hobby. When I was first getting into BPs, I hadn't planned on getting any wild-types -- I picked up several female morphs and planned on never adding any normals. But then a friend was selling a really huge, friendly, nice-looking normal female, and ... Well ... :rolleyes:

I don't think wild-type BPs are going to go away in breeder's collections any time soon, for a number of reasons. For one, even a normal female can be hugely valuable -- and produce very few or even zero wild-type babies -- if bred to the right male. A male killerbee, for example, would produce half pastels, half bees if bred to a normal female. If that's a giant female who produces a ten-egg clutch -- that girl is a great asset!

I know that I have seen giant, 2500+ gram morph females out there, but they seem to be quite rare. I know that in chinchilla breeding, although the mutation colors can sell for more than standards, any serious breeder would shun you if you said you never planned to have standards in your herd. It's conventional wisdom that standards are "stronger" genetically than mutations, and while I seriously question if this has been overstated, there does seem to be some truth to it -- generally, the more mutation genes a baby chinchilla carries, the lower its birth weight for most litters. I wonder if it may be the same way for wild-type versus morph ball pythons.

Finally, in terms of there being an overabundance of unwanted normals ... Even if I did think that were totally true, or it becomes true in the future, I don't think that it's indiscriminate breeding that will cause it. I think it would be more due to the 1000's of CH babies that are being imported each year and sold for $8-12 a head. :rolleyes: And there, you have to think, if people weren't buying 'em, other people wouldn't be expending all the time and effort and money to import them ... So somebody must be buying normals. :P

And, as if I haven't rambled enough, I'll say one more thing: I have yet to experience it firsthand, so I'm not gonna pretend to be preaching from experience, but I have a strong suspicion that carefully selected wild-type animals can be very useful in altering and improving your morphs over future generations.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

And, as if I haven't rambled enough, I'll say one more thing: I have yet to experience it firsthand, so I'm not gonna pretend to be preaching from experience, but I have a strong suspicion that carefully selected wild-type animals can be very useful in altering and improving your morphs over future generations.

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Actually, this has indeed been shown to be the case. Grant Whitmer of lavenderalbino.com found that the darkest normals/hets produced Lavender Albinos with the brightest shades of purple. I'd be willing to bet someone has crossed Pastels with light-colored normals to produce Even Better Pastels(TM).

You're using the term Homozygous wrong.

Homozygous includes normals without any other traits, all homozygous co-dominant traits, and all homozygous recessive traits.
All traits can be homozygous.

Heterozygous co-dominant traits are visible. Heterozygous recessive are non-visible.

Also, normals are not undesired. Most people who want a ball python for a pet don't want to pay a couple hundred dollars for it. And when they find they can get them so inexpensively from a breeder, they sell out faster than Petco.

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Actually, this has indeed been shown to be the case. Grant Whitmer of lavenderalbino.com found that the darkest normals/hets produced Lavender Albinos with the brightest shades of purple. I'd be willing to bet someone has crossed Pastels with light-colored normals to produce Even Better Pastels(TM).

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I have a reduced normal female who will be fantastic for morphs. I also have a very nice normal male with a spider-like pattern who would make some wicked spiders. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Actually, this has indeed been shown to be the case. Grant Whitmer of lavenderalbino.com found that the darkest normals/hets produced Lavender Albinos with the brightest shades of purple. I'd be willing to bet someone has crossed Pastels with light-colored normals to produce Even Better Pastels(TM).

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http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ston/Winny.jpg

plus

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/IMG_5169.jpg

equals

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...DSC_0160-1.jpg

And normal females will always be important in a breeder's collection, especially when you need to figure out EXACTLY what genes are mixed up in the multi-gene combos. Breed the male with 3+ genes in it to find out exactly what genes contributed to that combination. How do you think the big guys end up working out what's in the 4+ combos?

Eventide....if you ever need help with getting rid of normals...let me know. ;)

And see I knew we were meant to be friends...our favs are still our normals.
We so need to have lunch sometime!

Thanks for all the great information in regards to breeding and the importance of normals. I definately appreciate all the different view points in this thread and am glad to see that a couple people have had similar thoughts.

personally my favorite bp in my collection is a LTC captive normal.

But as people have said already your thought of morph x morph is better in some way isn't true, as many normals will provide a great base if you pick intelligently. For example in my own collection I'd rather outcross with quality normal animals than inbreed a morph into a depression. Besides trying to steer away from inbreeding, I think selective breeding with choice normals as a base is important for a good morph. Plus normals are so variable and amazing...

People are seriously 'into' the morphs right now, and have only touched the surface of what is possible with normals.

NERD has some line-bred high yellow normals. This is a start. Through selective breeding we can produce some truly SPECTACULAR looking animals that will not have a single mutant gene in them. It just takes time.

Working with line-breeding of normals is something I fully intend to do once I'm established in about 3 or 4 more years. Being able to produce normals that are consistantly near-black, or consistantly bright yellow, consistantly desert pale...imagine what those lines could do when mixed in with various morphs over time. It's well worth it!

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I have a reduced normal female who will be fantastic for morphs. I also have a very nice normal male with a spider-like pattern who would make some wicked spiders. :gj:

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Oooooh, sounds cool! You'll have to show us how they turn out!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

[images]

And normal females will always be important in a breeder's collection, especially when you need to figure out EXACTLY what genes are mixed up in the multi-gene combos. Breed the male with 3+ genes in it to find out exactly what genes contributed to that combination. How do you think the big guys end up working out what's in the 4+ combos?

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Wowzers! The top Pastel is gorgeous on his own, but the offspring is even more fantastic! Nice!

Good point with the multi-gene combos.

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Eventide....if you ever need help with getting rid of normals...let me know. ;)

And see I knew we were meant to be friends...our favs are still our normals.
We so need to have lunch sometime!

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Hee hee, sure thing! ;)

And yes, we do! It'd be great to talk snake obsession sometime! :D