What do you consider quality?

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I'm surprised that so many people voted "no single aspect"

Sometimes with selective breeding, a truly spectacular specimen really only exhibits one "single aspect" to such a degree, that I consider it a truely high quality animal. A clown might just be another clown, but the extraordinarily reduced pattern clown stands out, with one single aspect making the difference between "another nice BP" and "extaordinary".

Granted, being awesome in many regards is preferred, but I do think that "single aspect excellence" animals, in many cases, can be defined as "true quality animals"

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Would you consider an emaciated extraordinarily reduced patterned clown to be high quality?

That's why I chose that there was not one single aspect to the quality.

I am extremely picky about the animals that I add to my collection, including the normals. I choose my normals based on their colors and patterns as well. For example, I only pair my pastel with my lightest females, those that also have nice blushing heads as well. He doesn't get thrown in with just any female with the goal of "just" producing pastels. I also want to produce the nicest examples of the morphs that I'm working with.

I also agree with Deb and Deborah - there are also some people who I would never do business with, no matter how nice their animals may be.

As to temperment? I'm less concerned about that. I think a lot of temperment also comes from more than just genetics. I have been bitten by my adults, less than 5 times, and each time, it was because I was careless and startled them.

However, my friends Deborah and Ed (Freakie Frog) both seem to get bit on a higher frequency than I do. One theory that we've come up with is that both of them have a higher body temperature than most people do. I sat at NERD holding a black pastel, calm as can be in my hands. Deb comes to sit next to me and it starts swinging at her. We did "temp gun" Deb and she was giving off more heat than I was.

I believe that Ed has also temp gunned himself and he also gives off more heat. He has a female of mine on loan that has NEVER bitten anyone - until he got her. Now she likes to play "let's see how fast Ed can move" with him.

Of course this is just our own "theory" on why the two of them get bitten at a higher frequency than other keepers do. Both are confident handlers, the only difference that we can discern is the amount of body heat that they give off.

Robin I have temped myself with my gun and have found that my surface temp is much higher than most people. I simply think that these animals get use to seeing the heat signature of "people" and learn that they are ok, then along comes a critter thats hotter and they get defencive.

Getting bite sucks...but you deal with it..I try to aviod it at all cost but there are time that your just not paying attention or it can be avoided.

On the animal-
Color and pattern is a bit lower on the scale for me than the overall health of the animal-no RI, no mites, active, and regarding temperament I actually look for proper defense mechanisms when I first touch/hold the animal--does it curl up? Flinch? If not, is it at least curious as to who I am? To me, an animal that doesn't react at all to a stranger is LESS normal that one that does--of course, it can't go overboard on it. You can usually tame a snake down... but a listless or unresponsive creature may be signs of a bigger health problem.

For the seller-
Honesty first and foremost, what it's eating, how old it is, and all the basics. I understand that it can be exhausting so how enthusiastic the person is doesn't really affect me, but I don't like it when someone tries to push an animal onto me.

Something extra that I look for--at a show during the colder months, when I handle the animal, is it WARM? As in, did the breeder/seller take the extra time to install either a heat lamp or under heater? Those hours (or sometimes even days) that the animals are put on display in a less than optimum ambient temp room can cause RI, even if it wasn't sick when they brought it in, it can be sick when you bring it home and that's a battle I'd avoid if I could.

Reputation to me is not as important--as long as the person has no BAD reputation, it doesn't matter if he's a big or small breeder.

I've never bought online before (way too paranoid for that) so the only thing I can say is about buying in person.

I firmly believe that temperament is inherent--my newly hatched babies run the gamut of personality from very laid-back, outgoing, and curious, to little spitfires that try to kill anything that comes near them with their teeth.
These personalities evolve over time--most of the nervous snakes, and some of the bitey ones, will calm down as they grow older. But I have never seen this happen the other way around.

If a snake is going to be a pain as an adult, it pretty much is sure to have started out that way, too.

Whether genetics play a role in this remains to be seen, but they have been PROVEN to play a role in other species, so it's a fair assumption that they DO.
Because of that, I will not breed a snake with a bad temperament--I don't keep them. I don't hold back bad-tempered hatchlings. I don't BUY bad-tempered snakes.

For me, a quality captive ball python is one that is temperamentally suited to be a captive, and a pet. That is an essential component to 'quality' for any animal intended to be a pet. I do not buy into the idea that 'these are wild animals', and that defensive bites are something you just have to put up with. Most of my snakes have never bitten in self-defense. We keep these animals as pets--we're responsible for choosing which ones to breed, and for selecting traits that will make them better PETS--in other words, we are responsible for continuing the process of DOMESTICATING them.

Accidental feeding bites are completely different. Actually startling a snake is also completely different--your pet dog or cat may bite you if you startle them badly enough. But biting when they see you coming--that's not startlement. I do not believe adult CBB ball pythons that display a willingness to bite rather than be handled are high quality.

For me, in looking for a prime specimen, I primarily look for brilliant colors/hues/patterns.

Personality does not matter much to me. It depends on the species; for example, all ball pythons will tame down with proper care.

Health is also not a top priority (in this hypothetical situation of course); see, when I buy any animal, of course I want a perfectly healthy specimen. The thing is, if someone is trying to sell a "quality animal", great health is a prerequisite.

It's like those fancy dog/cat/chicken/horse judging contests. Entrants are required to be in great shape and healthy obviously. For me, it's the beauty, and the colors that please me the most.

I'm just WAITING for actual reptile shows--ones with judges. <lol>

I agree that temperament is important and that a large part of it is genetic but personally, I'm not looking for a BP that's going after everything that moves or one that doesn't seem to move at all, but one that when handled/touched/disturbed does exhibit at least to some degree defense mechanisms. Something about a snake that doesn't react at all bothers me, I end up questioning whether it's feeding response is up to par and whether it's unresponsive for a medical reason.

I'm really on the fence about whether it's our job to genetically domesticate a snake--I'm going to use a dog as an example. I'm not fond of the extremely domesticated neonatal dogs. I'm more of a chow-chow akita shar-pei rottie pitbull dobie type person. Yeah, those dogs can be dangerous if not properly trained and cared for, but I like their independence and spunkiness, and wouldn't want them to be completely docile in the future, which, if genetically nipping off aggression at every turn, may just do. As long as they have proper responses towards strangers (as in, not to trust them immediately but not biting them) a little extra training and taming doesn't bother me.

A dog that unceasingly seeks to please /everyone/ can get on some people's (especially my) nerves.

I think, just like with any wild animal, we can't say "let's try to domesticate it to as docile as it can go so it makes a good pet." There are ups and downs to an animal that has both its wild nature and its domesticated side--if someone's never seen or dealt with a defensive snake before, that person likely will not be able to deal with or even recognize one in the future if they so happen to come across one. Then it goes onto the whole bigger picture of when an animal is too docile, too tame, to the point where it won't even walk away if something is bothering it (like children, or even adults) it can teach the person to be inconsiderate, because they won't be able to read actions and expressions which will become detrimental to them socially in the future.

On the other hand, we'd have less of those dogs-eating-baby stories too.

To me, quality is "Is this animal a prime example of it's species?" and that includes its temperament as well.

if your snake isnt smashing its food then to me it doesn't matter if its a pastel or a super pastel

Well, let's face it--we're making pets, not zoological display animals. Ball pythons are renowned for having generally docile temperaments. If someone wants a snake that isn't quite so placid, maybe they should consider a dwarf Burm. ^_^

Because these are pets, and are always going to be pets, and we're altering them genetically to make them more aesthetically pleasing, why would we want to neglect the traits that will make them more suitable captives? That means a good temperament so the animal can be easily handled, and good, consistant eating habits.

It has NOT been my experience that docile, curious, outgoing snakes are poor feeders. I've had more problems with the very defensive ones being poor feeders. I will say that I have had problem feeders with every personality type, though--I don't think there is a direct relationship. Thankfully, problem feeders in general aren't too common.

My most docile female, who went to visit school children as an ambassador animal, is a real monster when food is presented--watch your limbs, and use the long tongs! <lol>

I guess I just haven't run across enough truly "non-docile" ball pythons to give temperment a second thought. As a rule, ball pythons are a docile species, and those that aren't are rare.

Other than defensive hatchlings, my entire collection is pretty docile, although I didn't select them for their temperments.