Touchy subject that i need some light shined on....

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

like I said earlier, it seems to happen in the wild

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In the wild, when one animal is feeling stressed by the presence of another animal it has the option of escaping that stress by crawling away and finding a location where it can be alone. Not so in your current setup.

Ball pythons, like many animals, have dominant/subordinate relationships when they encounter each other ... this is most obvious in male combat during breeding season but plays out in much more subtle ways in female to female relationships and even male to female relationships whenever they encounter each other. The subordinate animals are always under some degree of stress from the presence of an "alpha" or dominate animal. How that stress effects the subordinate animal really depends on the individual.

Stress is bad for ball pythons ... even worse for gravid females ... and the crummy thing about stress is that most of the time you can't see it, smell it, or know it's there one way or the other until it's usually too late ... seems to me, it's better for the animals to take the possibility of stress out of the equation as best as we can. Housing each animal individually guarantees that stress from a dominant cage mate will not be a problem.

If you feel like your current setup is something that works for you, great! ... Just sharing my thoughts on the subject for whatever they're worth.

Blessings,

-adam

Mike, this is a very interesting thread, I am amazed your flame wording has kept people from jumping down your throat.

Can you please post some links of the movies you refer to.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

In the wild, when one animal is feeling stressed by the presence of another animal it has the option of escaping that stress by crawling away and finding a location where it can be alone. Not so in your current setup.

Stress is bad for ball pythons ... even worse for gravid females ... and the crummy thing about stress is that most of the time you can't see it, smell it, or know it's there one way or the other until it's usually too late ... seems to me, it's better for the animals to take the possibility of stress out of the equation as best as we can. Housing each animal individually guarantees that stress from a dominant cage mate will not be a problem.

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If we were that worried about the snakes stress, and its ability to always get away from the presence of another animal #1 we wouldn't be keeping a ball python in captivity in the first place and #2 We would NEVER handle our snakes because that would be very specificly putting them in the situation where they loose the option of crawling away and being alone. In fact, we would never even go into the same room as them where they can feel our presence.

Would love to see some kind of study one of these days that somehow someway proves that ball pythons do not benefit it any way from being around other ball pythons. Until that happens, it is only a theory. Just like my theory that states the opposite.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

Maybe you should have waited until you moved to a bigger place before getting so many snakes?

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Why when this is true?

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

:) Will the snakes benefit from living in pairs instead of living by themselves? Who knows? I don't think they will BUT I also don't think it will be detrimental to them, or even be uncomfortable to them in any way shape or form. Keep in mind, these are healthy, established snakes that are showing no sings of stress. They still eat every single time food is offered and are growing just as fast as others in my collection of the same age that are living by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Fearless

Mike, this is a very interesting thread, I am amazed your flame wording has kept people from jumping down your throat.

Can you please post some links of the movies you refer to.

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It's hard to jump down someones throat when they are experienced and educated on the subject... and you don't have a strong argument against him.

Did a 1 minute search and found this. You are welcome to search the web yourself. won't be hard to find. This is a case where two males are living together with one female with lots of eggs present. If you look in the background it looks like the guy is still trying to get a 4th snake out... Males kept together will battle for a female... but here is a case where mother nature seemed to make everything work out just fine.

YouTube - Ball pythons in the wild

WOW those females are huge

That one female was MASSIVE.

Regarding this topic; I totally agree with you in the sense that if it happens in the wild then there is a possibility it can be done in captivity. Who knows maybe 5-10 years down the road everyone will be doing the same; as earlier said breeding is all about finding what works well for you personally, everyone has their own style/ preferences.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

If we were that worried about the snakes stress to that extent, and its ability to always get away from the presence of another animal #1 we wouldn't be keeping a ball python in captivity in the first place

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You missed my point completely. I feel that if you choose to keep a ball python in captivity (which is certainly your choice) doing as much as possible to minimize/eliminate stress is paramount.

You could make an extremist argument for anything ... for example, if we were "that worried" about drunk drivers, we wouldn't have cars ... silly? of course, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything we can to minimize the horrible dangers of drunk drivers on our roads.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

#2 We would NEVER handle our snakes because that would be very specificly putting them in the situation where they loose the option of crawling away and being alone.

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Short handling sessions where the animal is placed back into an enclosure by itself afterward is exactly how a ball python moving away from a stressful situation would behave. Interaction and then escape ... it fits with the animals flight instinct.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

In fact, we would never even go into the same room as them where they can feel our presence.

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Again, this is another extremist position ... the idea of providing a secure enclosure for the animal is to give it an environment where it feels safe when potential threats are present.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Would love to see some kind of study one of these days that somehow someway proves that ball pythons do not benefit it any way from being around other ball pythons.

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It would definitely be in your best interest to speak with a biologist that specializes in animal behavior. I have and have learned volumes towards providing the best environment possible for my animals.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Until that happens, it is only a theory. Just like my theory that states the opposite.

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Very true. There's certainly no way to prove what a ball python is or isn't thinking or feeling ... but, there are some theories that are generally acceptable within the biological and scientific communities and some that aren't. I can theorize until the cows come home that when no people are around my dogs speak to each other in pig latin ... is there a paper or study that shows that it's not possible? maybe, but I haven't seen one ... but that doesn't mean that people that haven't seen those papers or studies will believe my theory. Some things are just generally acceptable ... ball pythons being housed one per enclosure is certainly one of those things.

It's certainly a good discussion, but my personal experience is that when housing ball pythons one per enclosure, they do much better than group housing. Back in the late 90's, I did communal housing for about 5 years (it was a very popular husbandry method for ball pythons at the time) and for the last 10 years or so I've used individual enclosures for each snake.

It's what works for me.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Did a 1 minute search and found this. You are welcome to search the web yourself. won't be hard to find. This is a case where two males are living together with one female with lots of eggs present. If you look in the background it looks like the guy is still trying to get a 4th snake out... Males kept together will battle for a female... but here is a case where mother nature seemed to make everything work out just fine.

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The difference between the wild and captivity is that if one of those snakes decides that it doesn't want to be around the others, it can crawl as far away as it wants to feel safe. They are not forced to live like that, they are making a choice. By permanently housing multiple snakes in a captive environment, you are forcing them to live like that and not giving them a choice.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The difference between the wild and captivity is that if one of those snakes decides that it doesn't want to be around the others, it can crawl as far away as it wants to feel safe. They are not forced to live like that, they are making a choice. By permanently housing multiple snakes in a captive environment, you are forcing them to live like that and not giving them a choice.

-adam

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Thank you for your time Adam. this is a very good and interesting conversation... what forums are all about!

As far as your quote above here, the same exact thing can be said for the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The difference between the wild and captivity is that if one of those snakes decides that it wants to be around the others, it can crawl as close as it wants to feel safe. They are not forced to live like that, they are making a choice. By permanently housing snakes in a captive environment by themselves, you are forcing them to live like that and not giving them a choice.

-adam

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Unfortunately for your position, biologists and herpetologists are in general agreement that other than breeding and opportunistic behavior, ball pythons do not benefit from living communally.

I applaud you for doing your own investigation into the science of ball pythons though ... sometimes it helps when you just see for yourself. :gj:

Good things.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You missed my point completely. I feel that if you choose to keep a ball python in captivity (which is certainly your choice) doing as much as possible to minimize/eliminate stress is paramount.

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I didn't miss your point, I understood it fully. I am suggesting that it is not a FACT that housing a snake permanently by itself is what the snake itself would want. It is a theory, not a fact.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You could make an extremist argument for anything ... for example, if we were "that worried" about drunk drivers, we wouldn't have cars ... silly? of course, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything we can to minimize the horrible dangers of drunk drivers on our roads.

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LOL, I agree. not the best comparison tho.

We don't know that the snakes prefer to be by themselves all the time. What if they prefer to be by themselves half the time and with others half the time? Then who would be right?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Again, this is another extremist position ... the idea of providing a secure enclosure for the animal is to give it an environment where it feels safe when potential threats are present.

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How do you know that they don't feel more secure in their tub when another snake that they are used to living with is in there with them too??? I know the popular THEORY the majority believe in this forum is that when one snake lays on top of one another, one is trying to dominate the other. We all know they love tight spaces, how do we know that them laying on top of one another is not just them making their environment as cramped as possible? After all that is when they feel most secure right?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It would definitely be in your best interest to speak with a biologist that specializes in animal behavior. I have and have learned volumes towards providing the best environment possible for my animals.

Very true. There's certainly no way to prove what a ball python is or isn't thinking or feeling ... but, there are some theories that are generally acceptable within the biological and scientific communities and some that aren't. I can theorize until the cows come home that when no people are around my dogs speak to each other in pig latin ... is there a paper or study that shows that it's not possible? maybe, but I haven't seen one ... but that doesn't mean that people that haven't seen those papers or studies will believe my theory. Some things are just generally acceptable ... ball pythons being housed one per enclosure is certainly one of those things.

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I have read and read and read. I have talked to some of the biggest names in the business (like yourself). I certainly have not been in this as long as you, and certainly do not know as much as you in general. That said, I don't just assume something to be true because the majority believes a theory to be true.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It's certainly a good discussion, but my personal experience is that when housing ball pythons one per enclosure, they do much better than group housing.

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Well, my personal experience is that keeping grow out females in pairs can be done without issue. They can eat as regularly and grow as regularly as siblings that are kept alone. Your welcome to come by my house one of these days so I can show you the proof on that.