Big snakes, small enclosures.

Mumps,

I had the same opinions on tubs when I first joined this site - based on the same, utterly incorrect, assumptions I was making that you are now.

I will try and cover some of the points.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

I got into this hobby because reptiles fascinate the hell out of me. Their patterns, colors, behaviors, mysteriousness all intrigue me to no end.

I fail to see how putting a snake (of any size or shape) into a drawer like your socks is going to be a beneficial experience for either of you. You never get to know them, they are less likely to get to know you. You can't observe without disturbing them - if you think pulling the drawer out doesn't disturb them, then you have a thing to learn about how receptive they are to movement - You can't even make a quick visual check before going to bed.

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That's pretty much the same reason we are all here so please bear that in mind while reading our posts. :)

You are making a few assumptions about tubs that simply aren't accurate - they are not all totaly opaque. And you do in fact get a brand called iris which are glass clear and very popular for that very reason.

You can see and check on them perfectly fine for most of us - or at least as easily as you can with a glass tank. The same comment about disturbing them applies to opening the lid of a tank etc.

And, since we feed and clean our tubs just as often as you do we have exactly the same chances to get to know each other as you do with yours.

We are not putting them in drawers like socks - we simply replaced glass with plastic. That is the total extent of the change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

You think they are content in there? Just because you can't hear them saying "Get me the .... out of here!" doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

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And, equally, since you do not use the system and have therefore no experience of it you have not one single shred of evidence they are saying it.

I have used both for not only the same species but the same animals I previously kept together in a five foot by two foot square tank - and trust me they do fine seperated in a rack system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

I think a problem a lot of you suffer from is the money-issue. If big breeders can make all that money and be successful breeding by using these tubs then they must be all that. Just because something works doesn't mean it is good for the animals. Chickens lay a lot of eggs cooped up 4 in a square foot of space. Does that mean they're happy? Gorillas in zoos used to live in a concrete room with a tire on a chain. They lived, grew old and entertained millions of visitors. Why the change to large natural environments where on some days visitors never even get to see them?

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You are wrong about the money issue - the difference in price between a glass tank and a tub is minimal and the rest of the equipment is still needed.

Self build isn't hard or expensive either. Store bought plastic caging isn't cheap but people still use it.

I get that you have formed opinions based on the intelligence and mental alacrity of reptiles based on the simple pattern recognition you taught your burm - but I have news for you, people have taught similar levels of conditioning to insects. And I don't mean ants or other colony animals here.

I really see limited relevance to your chicken or gorilla analogy in relation to these animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

I guess what it boils down to is personal preferance. I like to see, touch, interact and learn from my animals. Nothing is cooler to me than to have something which so many fear and loathe trust you and know that you mean them no harm. I'm talking gators, varanids and the giant snakes. They, to me, are the best. So maybe that's one of the reasons... am I jealous that I can't find a tub big enough for 7 foot water monitors? Or 16 foot retics? No. I just don't comprehend the idea of purchasing a 5 thousand dollar morph and stuffing it into a drawer and looking at it once a week...

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Again, so do we.

And you fail to comprehend the idea because that idea is not what any of us are doing - with the possible exception of a big breeder with thousands of animals.

I see my animals almost constantly from this seat and see every single one of them at least once a day while checking for poop and pee etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

The only tub I would agree upon would be the 8 footers Brian mentioned. I would suppose that would be alright for a blood python.

And I am not attacking Brian. He has a huge business and he is doing the best he can in order to make a living. He's a mass production facility. Not a hobbyist. He makes lots of cool snakes that only other mass production facilities can afford. Good for him.

Chris

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Brian is indeed a prefessional breeder - but the phrase "mass production" is, by implication, doing him a great dis-service and completely ignoring the path he went through to get to where he is today.

And I think you will find most of his customers are regular keepers like us.


dr del

I'm with Mumps on this one. I think Ball Pythons are one of the very select species that actually benefit from being in a rack.

However, my limited experience with carpet pythons and corn snakes has led me to believe (as well as other people's experience, mind you) that they would much prefer to be in a tank. I guess it's more of the Euro perspective... in some nations there are even laws about what the minimum enclosure requirements are.

Dutch,

Beyond reason, you continue to tell us that the monitor lives in that small drawer, something Brian has explicitly said he does not do. That certainly makes you look like you're putting your foot in your mouth over and over again.

Let me know when you go see Brian's facility. I'll go with you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Mumps,

I had the same opinions on tubs when I first joined this site - based on the same, utterly incorrect, assumptions I was making that you are now.

I will try and cover some of the points.



That's pretty much the same reason we are all here so please bear that in mind while reading our posts. :)

You are making a few assumptions about tubs that simply aren't accurate - they are not all totaly opaque. And you do in fact get a brand called iris which are glass clear and very popular for that very reason.

You can see and check on them perfectly fine for most of us - or at least as easily as you can with a glass tank. The same comment about disturbing them applies to opening the lid of a tank etc.

And, since we feed and clean our tubs just as often as you do we have exactly the same chances to get to know each other as you do with yours.

We are not putting them in drawers like socks - we simply replaced glass with plastic. That is the total extent of the change.



And, equally, since you do not use the system and have therefore no experience of it you have not one single shred of evidence they are saying it.

I have used both for not only the same species but the same animals I previously kept together in a five foot by two foot square tank - and trust me they do fine seperated in a rack system.



You are wrong about the money issue - the difference in price between a glass tank and a tub is minimal and the rest of the equipment is still needed.

Self build isn't hard or expensive either. Store bought plastic caging isn't cheap but people still use it.

I get that you have formed opinions based on the intelligence and mental alacrity of reptiles based on the simple pattern recognition you taught your burm - but I have news for you, people have taught similar levels of conditioning to insects. And I don't mean ants or other colony animals here.

I really see limited relevance to your chicken or gorilla analogy in relation to these animals.



Again, so do we.

And you fail to comprehend the idea because that idea is not what any of us are doing - with the possible exception of a big breeder with thousands of animals.

I see my animals almost constantly from this seat and see every single one of them at least once a day while checking for poop and pee etc.




Brian is indeed a prefessional breeder - but the phrase "mass production" is, by implication, doing him a great dis-service and completely ignoring the path he went through to get to where he is today.

And I think you will find most of his customers are regular keepers like us.


dr del

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Couldn't agree more!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Dutch,

Beyond reason, you continue to tell us that the monitor lives in that small drawer, something Brian has explicitly said he does not do. That certainly makes you look like you're putting your foot in your mouth over and over again.

Let me know when you go see Brian's facility. I'll go with you.

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Where've you been? Someone posted something that said it was a temporary housing, not a feeding tub.

And I don't need to go to Brian's facility to see that he has at least one huge afrock in a 5.5ft tub (that of course will be upgraded, sometime in the future :rolleyes:) and a Nile Monitor in a temporary housing where he can't even stretch out...

Where have you been? I've only ever seen Brian state that it is a feeding tub for the show. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Where have you been? I've only ever seen Brian state that it is a feeding tub for the show. :rolleyes:

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Since you asked...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enser54

In this video at 6:20 he states that the monitor is in the tub as its 8ft enclosure is being rebuilt as a 10ft enclosure (tubs=temporary):

YouTube - BHB Visit - April 2008 - Part 3

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I see FrankyKeno and her Husband in the video, perhaps she would let us know a little more about the temporary set up that was OVER A YEAR AGO.

How do you even know how long the animal was kept in the tub? Was it a week? A day? A few hours?

You have no idea how long the monitor was in the tub, so why do you continue to gripe about a temporary enclosure when you have no idea how long the animal was in it?

I've seen several videos in which that monitor is feautured in the same type tub. Maybe you're right, maybe the monitor was only there for a few hours. I just find it highly unlikely, because the way Brian said it didn't make it seem like they were working at it right that moment.

And shouldn't a temporary enclosure still provide the animal with the proper requirements?

Which requirements are inadequate for a temporary tub?