King of Dinkers update...

Thank you Dave for the update and I'm really sorry about the unfortunate outcome. On the positive note, I'm really glad you were able to prove the mutation genetic! I should also mention it's really refreshing to have someone be so open and transparent with their project- particularly with all the drama and negative things going on with the ball python community. Good luck Dave and I'm sure you will have many MANY cool combinations in the future!

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

Instead of quoting everyone I'll just try and answer all the questions here. If I miss yours please feel free to follow up.

This all started when I was building a group to produce Crystals and Crystal combos. The Dinker was created from a Pastel Special x Super Mojave breeding. I produced three Crystals and the Dinker. I also had a few other clutches fathered by the Pastel Special and kept them all as my knowledge of the adults made me think they could be related so I've been thinking recessive from the beginning. None of the siblings or half siblings look unusual.

The Dinker has produced 14 babies for me so far and those babies all look typical except the one that I'll call Dinker 2.0 for now. There are three ways that I thought this could be genetic so I tried to prove/disprove each this season and even though it's only been three clutches I feel pretty confident that it's recessive. Also, the original Dinker has Mojave in him and before this season possibly Pastel. It can't have Special in him or else he would be a Crystal. Out of 14 babies he hasn't produced one Pastel so at this point it looks like he is a Mojave plus the new gene. I can also reasonably rule out dominant unless I had horrible odds and went 1 for 14. In addition, since it came from the Crystal line I thought maybe it's a gene that needs to be combined with Mojave to reproduce itself. I produced 10 Mojaves or Phantoms that all look typical so I can pretty reasonably rule that out as well. The Dinker 2.0 came from breeding him back to the original Super Mojave.

I didn't breed him to any Normals as I wanted to use virgins so I can be 100% confident that there was no sperm retention from prior breedings. I simply didn't have any Normal virgins. Since his mother was a Super Mojave and I was after Crystals a lot of the half siblings are Mojaves or Mojave combos. I do have some that will be ready next year, and a few are pastels and a spider so hopefully I can isolate the gene next season.

Here is the photo of Dinker 2.0...

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/p...nker%202.0.jpg

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So, attempting to wrap my poor brain around all of the information...

The gene for KingDinker is probably recessive, which would mean he is homozygous for KingDinker. He threw a homozygous when bred back to mom, so mom has to have at least one gene, with the dad giving another copy of the gene...

So in total, you would have in your possession 3 animals who definitely have the KingDinker gene right now... with any offspring from KingDinker himself ALSO carrying at least one copy of the gene each(hets).

Do you still have KingDinker's dad?

Also, I wonder if mom actually is also KingDinker but it's being masked by the super mojave white washing it out?

Fascinating and I can't wait to see more updates. Thank you so much for sharing the whole process with us all. Sorry about the stillborn baby.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

So, attempting to wrap my poor brain around all of the information...

The gene for KingDinker is probably recessive, which would mean he is homozygous for KingDinker. He threw a homozygous when bred back to mom, so mom has to have at least one gene, with the dad giving another copy of the gene...

So in total, you would have in your possession 3 animals who definitely have the KingDinker gene right now... with any offspring from KingDinker himself ALSO carrying at least one copy of the gene each(hets).

Do you still have KingDinker's dad?

Also, I wonder if mom actually is also KingDinker but it's being masked by the super mojave white washing it out?

Fascinating and I can't wait to see more updates. Thank you so much for sharing the whole process with us all. Sorry about the stillborn baby.

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Not necessarily, we all know that alleles come in pairs and recessives are displayed when both alleles have the same mutation. Well, that's not necessarily the complete truth. Recessives are displayed when ALL alleles at the locus are displaying the mutation, sometimes there is only one. I've read of a condition known as partial monosomy where half of the gene pair can get skipped. If it happens at a locus where the gene has a mutation, then the mutation is displayed because there is no 'normal' half to cover for it. I often wonder if that's how 'spontanious' mutations happen.

I guess to know for sure, we'd have to know the parentage of the parents to see if there is a possibility that the dad could carry the gene too.

Or breed it out. Breed mom to a normal which would reveal if she throws a recessive mutation all by herself that she doesn't show visually. Same for dad.

I haven't heard of that happening in a ball python before. Granted, I'm not exactly in any inner circles or up to date on all the breeding projects. Heck, I haven't even heard of some of the newer morphs.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

So, attempting to wrap my poor brain around all of the information...

The gene for KingDinker is probably recessive, which would mean he is homozygous for KingDinker. He threw a homozygous when bred back to mom, so mom has to have at least one gene, with the dad giving another copy of the gene...

So in total, you would have in your possession 3 animals who definitely have the KingDinker gene right now... with any offspring from KingDinker himself ALSO carrying at least one copy of the gene each(hets).

Do you still have KingDinker's dad?

Also, I wonder if mom actually is also KingDinker but it's being masked by the super mojave white washing it out?

Fascinating and I can't wait to see more updates. Thank you so much for sharing the whole process with us all. Sorry about the stillborn baby.

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I think you're right but 14 babies is still a pretty small sample. However, everything has fallen in line as if it's recessive. I do have Dinker's dad as well as all the babies he's produced. He's fathered four clutches so far and one more is hatching now. I haven't seen anything unusual and I've kept them all thinking they may be 50% hets. I was lucky enough to hatch the Dinker before I sold any of the father's offspring. Some of those 50% het females will be ready to breed this coming season. As far as mom goes she didn't produce all Dinkers so she appears to be a Het. Also, if you notice the Dinker has a very thin eye stripe and mom does not. I did hatch a super mojave along with the Dinker 2.0 so I'm anxious for her to shed and see how she looks under a black light. Fun Stuff!

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

I think you're right but 14 babies is still a pretty small sample. However, everything has fallen in line as if it's recessive. I do have Dinker's dad as well as all the babies he's produced. He's fathered four clutches so far and one more is hatching now. I haven't seen anything unusual and I've kept them all thinking they may be 50% hets. I was lucky enough to hatch the Dinker before I sold any of the father's offspring. Some of those 50% het females will be ready to breed this coming season. As far as mom goes she didn't produce all Dinkers so she appears to be a Het. Also, if you notice the Dinker has a very thin eye stripe and mom does not. I did hatch a super mojave along with the Dinker 2.0 so I'm anxious for her to shed and see how she looks under a black light. Fun Stuff!

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Exciting! With any luck that super mojave is a super dinker mojave. ;)

I hadn't noticed the eye stripe. Are there any other photos of Dinker floating around? I don't think I've seen any except for the original post in this thread.

Edit: I see the eye stripe now on the baby! :)

Any updates on the babies? Have they hatched yet?
This is so exciting!

You must have not read the last couple pages

Do you think the parent might have been super Mojave pinstripe. Cus it looks like a busy jigsaw

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So i just read through 19 pages and went through the ups and downs with you and everyone following. This is the coolest thing i have read about ball pythons. I have always heard of people trying to prove genes out but this really puts it into perspective. Thank you for sharing.

I am really sorry about the baby ball. Although it had to be refreshing to see the pattern passed on at least! Good luck will be looking for updates!