Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Ok, I'm only going to say this one: shut up.

I was having a good discussion with a couple of members here, then you sprout up with this strawman. I never, ever stated that my opinion is better than any one else's. Why do I care? Because I'm a human being that dislikes pointless suffering in a controlled situation, and dislikes putting pets at risk.

If my sympathy for feeder animals and disdain to some of the reasons of live feeding offends you... or you think that somehow makes me self-righteous... then grow up. Really.



Never said anything? I've given you the quote as to why I called him an idiot. I don't care if he's friggen Einstein, that comment had a hint of malice about it. Converting f/t to live... why? What reason would you do this for? It makes zero sense and it was idiotic... sorry I didn't sugarcoat it for you.



You've contributed absolutely nothing in terms of a retort - instead taking potshots. I actually agreed with some of the live feeders on here on particular points. Oh, I accept it fine... that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Or like it for that matter. If such a forthright honesty offends you... well... build a bridge... :cool:

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Me take potshots, never. And please, keep it civil. You just don't like the fact unlike other people I call you out. I can't stand people who do what you're doing. You never stated your opinion is above ours yes, BUT you keep arguing trying to make our opinions look bad. :rolleyes:

Now to you, I'm going to go feed my snakes some nice plump live rats. :P

You can moan all you want, you can throw a hissy fit, but seriously, stop taking peoples post apart and grow up and accept it. I never stated I feed live for pleasure and I read this ENTIRE thread and saw no one do it either. You are the one using a "straw-man" defense as you like to call it.

I accept the fact you don't like us using live, that's YOUR opinion, but don't preach to us about how it's bad. You're just resembling someone else. :rolleyes:

Oh.. and I wouldn't say the conversation you've been having with everyone else was good.. Unless you call preaching good. But that's your opinion. As stated..

Oh yeah. I KNOW you stated the quote Jerry made. YOU didn't read what I said, I said "he never said anything" You know, to defend himself. But you had to jump on that horse and start whipping it. :rolleyes:

So what? He converted a few to live. I converted 1 myself. Do I have sympathy? Of course not, why? Because I have 1 that eats F/T, so why should I keep him on it, when my rest eat live?

You can preach and preach all you want, but I don't SUGARCOAT either, You got your opinion, and I have mine.

So like I said. Deal with it. :) I mean seriously, it's not like 90% of the stuff you're saying hasn't been brought up in this thread already. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gavin

What is so crazy about thawing mice and simply just giving them to your snake?

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Gavin, again it's not just thawing mice out and giving it to a snake. Like I said if you took 65 rats and thawed them and placed them in each tub. 3 of my snakes would eat them like That. Then you'd take the other 62 snake and do the zombie dance and maybe 1/2 of those would actually eat like that. Then you'd take 30 thawed rats that are left over and trash them. Bc I wouldn't re freeze and go get 30 more live rats and THEN the other 30 snakes would eat. Would you find that acceptable. That those 30 rats died to not be rated and to feed my trash? I don't. I figure if they are going to give their lives well then they should be eaten. I'm not going to feed my trash. That's the craziness I'm talking about. Yes I have tried converting. When I had 10 snakes and it was feasible for me to have that and my schedule. Now I have some that are garbage disbosals and some that only eat live. That's why I breed my rodents bc EVERYONE will eat live.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

If your time is so important to you than perhaps you should either get a couple of assistants to help you, or not keep so many reptiles? You say you watch them during the live feeding process... would that not take just as much time too? Have you even tried giving them f/t or just simply dumped in a live animal because you couldn't be bothered thawing them? Have you tried converting them? Of course it's going to take time and patience... you own many reptiles for heaven's sake. What happens if one of the animals gets in a bite and it's a deep one? What then? 2-4 hours is nothing on a per week basis, especially with so many pets that you are responsible for.

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I do have an assistant that comes to help me. But that's neither here nor there. And I certainly don't need to even entertain your other comment of what I have here at my home or not. And whether is a handlable number for myself. It is. I got it. Don't worry bout that.
Watching them is very easy. I put a rat in and the snake strikes it. I generally don't even have to close the tub. I make sure the rat can't bite and isn't in an awkward position and I move to the next bin. Pretty much it rat- squeal- check- next bin. Easy. It's Just not feasible for me to feed everyone ft. Sorry you don't like that.
If lets say a rat is caught in an weird position I have my hemostats right in my back pocket to prevent bites.
Let's say it does happen and a bite one that I should be concerned about happens. I have the knowledge and medication on hand to treat it myself. If its something that needs vet attn. my reptile vet is on call and will come to my home.
No 2-4 hours in a weekly basis is nothing. If I didn't already have a full time job, and another 10 hours of taking care of my animals bc I look at them as a full time job too. They're my Dayjob and I work nights as well. But you know I think your biased opinion is based on the fact that YOU Don't have a large collection to care for. And for some reason it's seems impossible for you to put yourself in other peoples shoes.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Boom. Headshot.

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Hmmm...not really. So one person in this entire thread said they do it because they enjoy watching it. Take it up with them. Go hit the YouTube comment boards. As others have said, contributing to the discussion is fine and well...forcing the discussion tends to make people care less about what you have to say.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Are you saying intent means nothing? No way, it means a hell of a lot. It is the crossing line between what is abject animal cruelty and what isn't..

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I think intent means alot. If you are just throwing animals to other animals just to kill them yes that's an issue. If you snake needs to eat and you watch it and you happen to enjoy it no. The snake needs to eat.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

If someone had the intention feeding live purely on the basis that they get their jollies out of it, then they should not be doing it. In fact... they should not even be owning pets if they enjoy causing and watching other animals suffer. Whether the same thing happens to the mouse or not isn't really the issue, it's if the person has malicious intent. And you're saying that doesn't matter because the mouse dies anyway??.

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How is it malicious intent if the snake needs to eat. Look I doubt anyone on here is feeding live just to see the snake torture a mouse. And really the prey is dispatched rather quickly. And i also doubt the people on this site are the ones on YT making these snuff films as you call them. Yet though I look at it as nature. You must also not beleive in hunting. I don't like hunting for sport but I do beleive that if an animal is going to give its life that animal should be used for food. It's should Guve back life and purpose. That is the only reason I'm ok with folks having a head of a buck on their wall. My first question is always did you eat it?
The live and ft rats do this. They have purpose.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Sorry, but if people like to watch other animals in pain then they're being sadistic. I can't really explain this any more easier.

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Ya If you like to watch animals in pain that's sadistic. Whom is saying they like that?

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Originally Posted by Gavin

I'd like to know what kind of parasite can survive the freezing process. The latter can easily be controlled - can you say the same for a live, unpredictable animal?

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Tape worm eggs. Also if the prey isn't frozen right I'm sure other parasites can survive as well. But I've read more than 1 thread in this forum. Hint search tape worm. About members whom have only fed frozen some how have tape worms in their balls.
What I can control is the size of the prey. Weanlings- what I feed- haven't really developed the aggressiveness as a jumbo. Weanlings and mediums are more curious than anything. They really have no idea what hits them. But like I said if they do get caught up the wrong way I Hve my hemostats right in my back pocket. Snakes are predators. They aren't stupid. But as a responsible person that cares about my collection I am very aware of what's going on during feedkn time.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Of course it makes it worse.

If you're killing them for pleasure, that indicates a malicious mindset. Wanting to cause pain to another animal and getting pleasure from it is far worse than not getting pleasure from it and being indifferent.



I'd recommend taking a look at the forum thread I linked. Those instances were not "days or weeks"... a mouse has sharp enough teeth to take out an eye. In an instant. It has happened before. Just because it never happened with you doesn't mean it never will, and doesn't mean it is not an unnecessary risk.



You can tell that to the people who had to pay expensive vet bills because a rat or mouse struck and took out an eye, or left a deep wound that would become infected.

And this is exactly why I don't buy any of these "convenience issues". Doing it for entertainment is flat out disgusting and should not be encouraged. If your snake is perfectly capable of taking f/t, then there's really no justification to feed it live unless you think a minute convenience outweighs the danger to the snake (and the suffering of the prey animal).

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Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

I think it's a huge mistake to claim that intent is what makes something cruel. That's silly.
Intent is, and always has been, utterly irrelevant. We do not live in a world where 'thought crimes' are valid.
If the animal suffers excessively, then it is cruel. If it does not, then it's not cruel. This isn't about what the human is thinking, it's about what the animal is feeling, and NOTHING else is important.

In a typical situation, the python will grab the animal, which causes a surge of adrenalin. Adrenalin increases heart rate, and dulls pain reception, and dumps endorphins into the animal's system, making the grab less painful. It will then constrict the animal tightly. Within seconds, the rodent loses consciousness, and its ordeal is over. This is a relatively humane way to dispatch a rodent.

I'm not sure where the idea comes that one good scare is a cruel thing. We humans seek out scares deliberately, because they're addictive. That's what amusement parks are all about. It may not be pleasant, but it's not painful, and it's not cruel. It is not an ongoing bout of fear, it's all over with very quickly.

A domesticated rodent placed into a snake bin shows some signs of anxiety and nervousness, but absolutely doesn't show signs of terror. They simply don't have the experience or instincts to truly be frightened, which is why they often walk straight up to the snake and sniff its face.

Is this AS humane as CO2 euthanasia? Probably not...usually, at least. But it is not so horrible as to be considered cruel, either, at least not by me. Honestly, if I were personally given the choice of these methods for my own death, I would choose death by snake. Perhaps your choice would be different.

Occasionally, things don't go perfectly--that's true when slaughtering animals, as well. We do the best we can. In the end, the animal dies, and doesn't take an excessively long time to do so, either way. Whether it's a good hit over with in seconds, or a bad one over with in a minute or two, it's still a short period of time. For me, that's good enough. I don't feel that feeding live is unecessarily cruel.

I also think that if you do not understand why humans identify with predators, and do not understand that humans absolutely do not control their own instincts, that you do not understand human behavior at all. Your use of the example of rape is just absurd. The vast majority of humans do not have any compulsion to commit such acts at all, and that is why they don't do it. The fact that the term exists is enough to prove that the few who do are not controlling their instincts or compulsions.
When I watch a predator/prey interaction, I personally identify with the predator. What the prey is feeling is simply not something that I consider at that moment. I'm capable of it, sure, but it's not where my focus is.
I don't dwell on the pain my food feels, or the pain my pets' food feels, because I don't see much point in doing so.

While snakes are occasionally injured by rodents, the VAST majority of the time, this occurs when a rodent is left unattended with a snake, not when a rodent is introduced to a snake's cage, and removed a few minutes later if it hasn't been eaten. So, I maintain, it's like forcing your dog to wear shoes, to worry about that rare incident where a snake might receive a bad bite from being fed live in a responsible fashion. I have never had a snake injured that way. I have had a few get a nick or scratch, but no worse than I've gotten myself while chopping vegetables. I consider that an acceptable part of being alive.

I also find that the vast majority of my snakes have a stronger feeding response when fed live, which suggests they prefer it. I actually take that into consideration.

On the other hand, if we move away from our reliable local supply of live rodents, I will go back to feeding mainly FT with live being given only to those snakes that won't accept it, because I don't like raising rodents, so prefer to raise as few as possible.

I know you're very attached to the idea that humans are different from other animals, but there is no evidence to suggest that it's true, and there's no reason why they should be held to unrealistic standards of conduct. I'm also not sure how to explain to you what it means to have empathy for predatory behavior, if you can't grasp the idea, but rest assured, your inability to identify with predators is not the norm for human beings.

I have explained to you that rooting for the lion to take down the gazelle has absolutely nothing to do with wanting the gazelle to experience pain, or enjoying its suffering. The reason people like to watch their snakes hunt live prey has nothing to do with sadism in the vast majority of cases. if you do not understand how this can be so, then your empathy is terribly one-sided.

My opinion remains this: It doesn't matter one bit to me, from an ethical standpoint, whether a rodent is killed by someone else, by me, or by my snakes. I do my best to make sure their deaths are as humane as is practical, given that they are going to be eaten. I personally feel that death is death, and a small moment of pain at the moment of death is no worse than a moment of pain at any other time. (People routinely neuter cats and dogs, for example, which involves days of intense pain and weeks of aches, during recovery--it is a very unpleasant procedure for the animal, yet, oddly, we do not consider it cruel. Since more pain is caused by this than by a snake constricting a rat, I consider feeding live to be perfectly fine). I feel no guilt over this.

You are welcome to your opinion, but I do not think your argument is valid enough for me to change my opinion. You're merely looking at it from a different perspective. That's ok, but it doesn't make me wrong, and you right--or vice versa, for that matter.

Everyone has to set their own boundaries, and come to their own conclusions.

Very well said winged wolf


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Gavin.. Your arguments are getting ridiculous... Homegrownscales is absolutely right. There is at least one member here who has a ball that very recently got tapeworms from FT.

Many parasites can NOT be killed by freezing. Eggs can go dormant and can hatch when conditions are right again.

In the last few years, we on here have seen countless photos and heard countless complaints of FT suppliers. Rodents coming in covered in feces, fleas, other parasites.. Smelling badly when thawed because they were allowed to sit dead for too long before freezing. They had begun to rot at the facility. Etc etc..

You have no clue how those rodents have been killed. Were they really gassed??? Because it's cheaper to just throw them all in a huge container in the freezer.. Do you think all these companies, who are in it to make $$, are going to tell you the truth about that?

You also keep forgetting that we are talking about BPs here...

You mentioned pet stores having all theirs on FT. Bull!! I promise you that petsmart and petco have maybe 1 out every 10-15 snakes that actually eats for them. Especially the balls. They usually never eat for them because those babies have either not yet been switched to FT, or they simply have not had their first meal yet and they don't want to take a dead rodent as their first meal.

This is something we have talked about on here many times. We have members on here who work for these stores. They see these things and it bothers them.

As for you saying 100's are injured by live feedings. That is also untrue. Where are these statistics? Many more are injured by being burned. Like was stated earlier, injuries happen if a rodent is left in a tank/tub/cage unattended, and usually for a long period of time. Bites during actual feeding are rare, and when they do happen, are minor. In the years I've been feeding live, I've never had a bite with one exception.. Back in 1996 a large rat bit a Burmese I had just bad enough to need some silver cream applied to it. Granted, that was when I decided to start feeding prekilled once the rats are weaned for most snakes, but I still have a couple picky eaters who require live.

The truth is, almost all of us who breed our own rodents have rats as pets as well. We care for them as much as we do our reptiles, but we understand what we have to do for our reptiles. We do not agree with anyone who feeds live out of pleasure for causing harm or death to another animal. We here are not like that.

If you begin breeding BPs and keeping them in large numbers, having to start new hatchlings, assist feeds on late starters, deal with the changing feeding habits of breeding adults, etc etc... And you insist on adhering to a F/T only rule, it won't be long before you get frustrated with BPs, get rid of them all, and get into boa's, carpet's, burm's, or something else that will agree with you 100% of the time..

I will reply to the rest of it later, as I have some work to do, but this stood out like a sore thumb:

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I think it's a huge mistake to claim that intent is what makes something cruel. That's silly.
Intent is, and always has been, utterly irrelevant. We do not live in a world where 'thought crimes' are valid.

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Intent has never been irrelevant. It is the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.



:rolleyes:

Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?

Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets. Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.

I've seen people on YT put mice in bathtubs, call that "hunting" while they're either giggling about it in the background, putting rock music in the background, calling it an "epic battle" etc. IMO, most people feed live to ferrets just to watch their animal kill something. It's a power thing.



This is exactly the reason why snake owners get a bad rap, because of idiots like you. Why would you want to: a) put your snake at unnecessary risk and b) put the feeder animal through unnecessary suffering? Sounds like a sicko to me.

I guess you're one of those people who see feeder animals as objects, and not living, breathing, feeling creatures. They can feel pain too you know. That's why we have a moral responsibility to minimise suffering where possible. After all, it is giving up its life for your snake... at least be decent about it.

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I feed live feeders to my ferrets as well. It works the same way as you do for snakes.

A - do not feed a feeder that is too large for the ferret. For this reason I do not feed anything larger than a mouse and I certainly do not feed live adult hamsters or asf as these animals are known to be a bit more aggressive.

B - make sure you ferret has the ability to hunt down, dispatch, and eat their prey animal. From the time I put my ferret Twitch into the tub for hunting, it takes her less than 5 seconds to hunt down the mouse and dispatch it. She is quick, efficient and she loves it. The feeder does not suffer. I do not allow my boy ferrets to hunt live prey because they do not have the high prey drive that Twitch does and they would not make quick work of hunting the animal down. I feel the animal would suffer if I allowed the boys to hunt.

I am responsible and knowledgable about ferrets and their feeding. I did a lot of research, talked with a lot of people, and consulted my veterinarian. Currently my ferrets are on a raw diet (raw meat/bones/organs) with one or two whole prey items thrown in during the week. Over the next few months I hope to convert them 100% over to a whole prey diet (rats, mice, hamsters, gerbils, quail, chicks, rabbits, etc).

I am NOT one of those people that film my ferrets or snakes taking down live prey for entertainment value. If I ever film my animals consuming anything it is for educational purposes only (as I hope to mentor others to switching their ferrets, cats, and dogs to a raw/whole prey diet).

People are not "sickos" for feeding live to a snake. You think the rat suffers? Try watching a video on how your hamburger is made, and you tell me which animal suffers more.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

You mentioned pet stores having all theirs on FT. Bull!! I promise you that petsmart and petco have maybe 1 out every 10-15 snakes that actually eats for them. Especially the balls. They usually never eat for them because those babies have either not yet been switched to FT, or they simply have not had their first meal yet and they don't want to take a dead rodent as their first meal.

This is something we have talked about on here many times. We have members on here who work for these stores. They see these things and it bothers them.

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I can vouch for this. I worked at a Petsmart and if you look up my old threads regarding a few of my experiences working there you'll see. I had to bring a corn snake baby back from the brink of starvation. At several months old, this snake weighed only 4g. I was not allowed (by company policy) to feed it live, so I had to stress this snake out by tube feeding it and assist feeding it for months before it finally began eating f/t on its own. Also 75% or more of the ball pythons that came into the store did not accept f/t and a few under my care had to be assist fed because they began to lose a lot of weight.