Jen Harrison Split from Big Daddy's Wholesale Thread

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Originally Posted by Entropy

The problem is Felicia (forgive me if I butchered the spelling of your name :please: ) is that people aren't really asking questions. There are some but there is a lot more attacking and nasty crap going on then there is question asking.

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She's not really answering questions, she's skirting the truth with conflicting stories. Can you see how frustrating and upsetting it is to the rest of us?

For those who think this is no ones business but Jen's..... How would you like to find out some time down the line that you bought an animal that was linked to Jen after all your animals became sick and died? You would feel just like Jen did when she found out that the virus came from Wyatt. The tables have turned and Jen was going to possibly spread the virus on to others. She cannot say with a clear conscience that her animals are 100% clean, just because they were treated. Treatment doesn't mean they are clean just because they are not showing symptoms.

We've still not seen any proof as to what virus it is that killed off most of her collection and neither has she as she has said already. She has stated that she has requested the information and is getting the runaround, so how can she say for sure what it is?

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Originally Posted by Otter_23

... It does suck that her stories are inconsistent and that she doesn't recheck what she is typing but in the end she did the right thing.

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No- she did not do the right thing in the end. She was forced by her peers to do the right thing. THAT is what is so reputation-destroying. SHE DID NOT DO THE RIGHT THING.

No one forced her to pull her ads. Many scammers get called out and keep scamming so bull &#^$ if she in the end didn't do the right thing. She could have chosen to keep the ads up and keep trying to sell them. Wyatt was called out and kept selling his snakes and you view that as the same?

Jas I would appreciate that :rofl: than I'll buy the ones Tosha got from him and ship them to you. Sound like a deal?
I think she has made some bad choices and tried to cover them up. I think she has been impulsive and desperate to try to save a hobby she loves.

Bottom line she shouldn't be selling these snakes and should at the least close her collection. She at this point stopped all sales and closed her collection. What more do you want her to do?

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Originally Posted by Otter_23

Wyatt was called out and kept selling his snakes and you view that as the same?

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Mark, Not in the least. I said "The tables have turned and Jen was going to possibly spread the virus on to others". I'm sure Jen would have felt like crap unlike Wyatt had she done that.

What about all the unanswered questions. I want to know for one if she has contacted the two people that adopted those two balls back in November to inform them that they could be carriers?

Otter23, I'd like her to be honest and consistent.

ghound, who the HECK are you to speak for ANYONE? Did all the newbies in the world get together and elect YOU there spokes idiot?
I use the word idiot after some consideration. You see, only an idiot or someone who NEEDS to have attention heaped upon them, would be so arrogant, and trust me I KNOW arrogant, as to ASSume to speak for sooooooooo very many people who don't know you from a hole to squat over.

If you're so unhappy here, hit the bricks. We were fine before you showed up and I reckon we'll survive after you're not even a memory.

No, I'm not very nice but you're saying mean things to nice people who are not as willing to be as blunt as I am. The mods here, even now, care about what you think and how you feel. It's not like that on many sites. I know this from personal experience both as a member and a mod.

entropy, as far as people not coming forward if they had similar problems because of the way jen has been treated, you might be right. Provided that those people are also liars, self delusional, and care more for their pocket book than their fellow herpers.

Anyone who was honest, told only ONE version of things and then did what was right without guys like me having to question what was happening would be welcomed with open arms and taken care of by more than a few members here. There are a LOT of breeders willing to be helpful in restocking someone who has had the wipeout jen is facing IF the person being wiped out is honest.

Most folks who make donations when someone has had their collection wiped out NEVER say a word about it. They may be thanked by the recipient but they don't go bragging to the world about what they did. Many here have helped others out and no one knows who did the helping. Sometimes we wait years to give the help to make sure the person recieving it is ready to go again.

jen dug this hole all by herself, jumped in it and then asked for a shovel to make it deeper more than once.

She came out in the open but always with that, and I don't mean to be petty, poor me whatever shall I do I can't afford to buy more my whole season is ruined and I'm emotionally wrecked and I just don't know what to do, as an undercurrent to almost every post she's made.

It's a fine thing, truly, that she came forward. It's a damn shame that she messed up that fine thing with lies.

Don't lie, you've got more support than you could ever use.

Lie, and you're food for the fishes.

I would have to agree Wes.

:bow::gj::bow::gj::bow::gj::bow:

A bit off topic but somewhat related to what Wes just wrote.

BW Smith was VERY open about the IBD problem he experienced and documented everything. If I was in the market for a boa, I would not hesitate to buy one from him now. You can be upfront about issues like this. It all depends upon how you handle it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

entropy, as far as people not coming forward if they had similar problems because of the way jen has been treated, you might be right. Provided that those people are also liars, self delusional, and care more for their pocket book than their fellow herpers.

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The sad fact is there are many people in this hobby that are like that. And as has been proven in the past sometimes it's the supposed 'good guys'... And that, apart from any situation with Jen is something that bothers me a lot about this drama.

Yes, it is possible for snakes with OPMV to have multiple diseases as it destroys their immune system (which is why they almost always die of pneumonia -- which mine did). You can read this in many of the links I have provided to articles/forums on this virus, as well as the e-mail from Dr. Jacobsen months ago that I posted below. The limited evidence that Elliot has found leaning toward a new virus only suggests that there may be something else on top of it. As previously stated, his test results being negative for OPMV are null and void because the animals used for samples may very well not have had sufficient time to develop an immune response as they were not infected for very long before being euthanized (therefore every test done would indeed be negative as it is antibodies that they look for). We are doing new titres on the remaining snakes to confirm or disprove this.

I never stated that it was specifically Dr. Jacobsen that cleared my offspring to be healthy. I said that my vets had told me so -- and indeed it was Dr. Gordon and Dr. Brodnik, who are the other two involved vets in this case. Yes, I have never been contacted directly by Dr. Jacobsen other than the e-mail he sent me way back when this all began before he was ever actually on the case. He was supposed to have been in contact with Dr. Gordon this whole time, which is why when Mark told me where everything was at thus far and that the offspring would be just fine, I took it that he was basing it off what he had learned from Elliot thus far and could be relied upon. Then when Jason Brodnik backed up what Dr. Gordon said, I felt assured that all was true. That is why I decided it would be OK to sell the offspring.

My decision to retract my sales had nothing to do with "getting caught with my pants down", as I wasn't doing anything malicious or trying to "sneak" anything by, as Jas and Tosha want to believe in their deluded realities. I based my decision to sell them off what I was told by two professionals -- and the only reason I changed my mind was because I was forced to rethink the issue with good cause, and decided to err on the side of caution.

Dr. Jacobsen's e-mail to Tosha cannot be completely considered accurate as he was making statements based off of lop-sided rumors and lies that were told to him by Tosha herself. She had told him I had sold snakes from my collection -- not true. She had told him I was attributing statements to him, which I had not -- so again, not true. He also specifically told her that the info shared was not to be shared with anyone else -- which she blatantly violated. This is the response I recieved from him today:

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Re: Virus info...and sharing private medical information...‏
From: Elliott Jacobson (JacobsonE@vetmed.ufl.edu)
You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as unsafe
Sent: Sun 5/04/08 10:03 AM
To: jennifer.harrison@hotmail.com

Jennifer: I provided some information to an individual who sent an e-mail to methat contained inaccurate information pertaining to recommendations that I supposedly made to you regarding ophidian paramyxovirus (OPMV) in yoursnakes. For instance, I did not recommend that you use the avian Colombovac vaccine. [This was before he ever recieved our samples -- the e-mail is pasted below] The avian viruses are so different than the reptile viruses that I doubt it would have any value even if your snakes had OPMV. If you have a hard scientific paper showing the efficacy of this vaccine for protecting snakes against OPMV, please send it to me. I believe all of the studies done are poorly documented. Plus there was no firm evidence that your snakes had OPMV. I mentioned to you that there were other viruses to consider. After speaking with you, the feeling I had was that your mind was made up and you had an approach you were going to follow. I received samples from Dr. Kincaid and reported my findings back to her. We did PCR for both paramyxovirus and reovirus on samples of lung from 3 snakes that were sent to me. The paramyxovirus PCR was negative. We were able to get an amplification product using our reovirus primer. However, we needed to have this product sequenced to make sure it was reovirus. At that point I notified Dr. Kincaid that we may have identified a virus but further sequencing was needed to verify what we had. I asked that she not share this information until we the sequencing results were completed. The results indicated that we amplified some other sequence that was essentially "garbage". We use"garbage" for any product that gets amplified that is a false positive. In my first review of the electron microscopic images I obtained on tissues from one of your snakes, I thought there might be an orthomyxovirus in the lung. But I was not sure so also I asked Dr.Kincaid not to share this information at that time. I sent images (3 weeks ago) to colleagues at CDC in Atlanta and they had a different opinion about the virus. They believe it is a rhabdovirus. This appears to be the same virus we identified in lung of a ball python in an epizootic in Texas. We are now trying to sequence this virus to determine its identity. This is not simple and straightforward. It may take us months to make a specific identification. I asked Dr. Kincaid to share this information with Dr. Gordon. I assume she did. If not, than I apologize for not sending the information directly to Dr. Gordon. Dr.Gordon should be the one providing the information to you.

I asked the person who sent me the e-mail to consider the information that I provided as privileged information and not be sent to anyone else. I simply wanted to correct the inaccurate statements in his e-mail that were attributed to me. It was a mistake on my part to think thatthis would be followed. So I also apologize for that.

In summary, we have no evidence that your snakes (or at least the samples sent to me) are infected with OPMV. However, we have evidence for a virus that is compatible with members of the family Rhabdoviridae. Our focus is to make a more specific identification of this virus. This could take months. Using Colombovac vaccine is unwarranted. Even if your snakes had paramyxovirus, it is questionable whether such a vaccine would have any value. Antibodies in snakes to OPMV develop 4-8 weeks following exposure (initial infection), not following first signs of clinical disease. Often signs of clinical disease are seen around 3 weeks following exposure. [Thus putting them within the 8 or more weeks it can take to develop antibodies -- and thus the negative test result] Further testing for exposure to OPMV is up to you since at this time there is no evidence at this time that your snakes are infected with this virus.

Any further communication to me about additional testing of your snakesshould be through Dr. Gordon. Any findings will be communicated directlyto Dr. Gordon and Dr. Kincaid (if she sends me any more material from your snakes) and no one else. I wish you the best of luck with your animals.

Elliott Jacobson
Professor of Zoological Medicine

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Just so you have both sides, this is the e-mail I had sent to him that prompted the above response:

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Virus info...and sharing private medical information...‏
From: Jennifer Harrison (jennifer.harrison@hotmail.com)
Sent: Sun 5/04/08 2:14 AM
To: jacobsone@vetmed.ufl.edu

Dr. Jacobsen -- My first question that I have to ask, is why you're responding to random strangers and giving them information from my client medical records and the research being done on my animals, without my permission? Then on top of that, this information gets posted on a public forum for hundreds, if not thousands of viewers to see and interpret in various ways (incorrect ones)? Secondly, why are you telling this information to strangers but yet I have not even been contacted by you or given this information by you in either phone form, e-mail form, written mail form, or via any kind of medical reports forwarded to Dr. Gordon to give to me? Dr. Gordon asked me if I'd even recieved a bill from you, to which I responded that I had not, and he found that very odd. Then when I go to read these e-mails posted publicly, they get removed because you requested them to be withheld -- so that not even the person involved (ME) can become more aware of what is going on? I don't understand how you could feel that this was ethically correct or professional.

You have had the samples Dr. Gordon took since January -- yet despite how much we have pressed to get any kind of info from you, you refuse to respond or give us any indication as to what we're dealing with. The only information we get is from a single e-mail sent to the Marshfield Clinic, in which you specifically asked to have hidden from Dr. Gordon and myself...which makes no sense and in my opinion. I don't understand why all the secrecy and refusal to give us your findings. These are MY animals, MY pets that have been dying...MY thousands of dollars in losses and MY thousands of dollars in veterinary bills -- yet Dr. Gordon and I don't hear a word from you or your lab, because you are specifically hiding it from us. In what I said online about my remaining animals being safe to breed and their offspring not having inherited it, that info came from Dr. Gordon and Dr. Jason Brodnik of Colorado -- the third victim from the seller that sent me the original infected animal. I had no reason not to trust what two veterinarians experienced with reptiles were telling me. I have since rescinded my decision to sell my offspring from the 2 accidental clutches I got (2 females went on to ovulate in January despite having only been bred 1-2 times each back in September/October, before this all began). Not a single animal has left my posession since September of last year, far before the original infected animal was ever recieved and this ordeal began.

Back in the beginning when I first contacted you, you advised against using the vaccine. That was before you knew anything about what was going on and before you had ever recieved any samples from Dr. Gordon. Since then, you had not been giving us any kind of info, so we did our own research -- and since OPMV fit the symptoms like a puzzle piece, and the vaccine Colombovac was proven to stop it (and even cure some ill ones -- which makes no scientific sense but nonetheless is true) in MULTIPLE cases in Europe , Dr. Gordon and I made our own decision to import it from a vet in Germany that had experienced this success first hand, and use it in the manner which was discussed in those UK cases. And low and behold -- IT WORKED. I have not had a single new animal fall ill since they were all vaccinated -- and the last two ill ones I had left magically got better, despite every single other treatment failing. All of my animals have been healthy and feeding for months now -- none are symptomatic or otherwise having problems. The two previously ill ones do have a slight dry wheeze once in a great while when upset or stressed, but Dr. Gordon attributes this to lung scarring from all the hemorraging they endured. Despite the e-mail you sent to the Marshfield Clinic discussing the negative result from the OPMV test you did, I still firmly believe that this is what I am dealing with. Mainly because the vaccine worked exactly as it was proven to in other cases, but also because your research on the virus and other articles on it state that antibodies can take up to 8 weeks to develop -- therefore your negative test result is most likely null and void, considering that the 2 females we euthanized for samples had only been sick for 3 weeks. They very well may not have developed any kind of immune system response in that short period of time. My other main reason for firmly believing that this is indeed OPMV, is that the seller's third victim, Dr. Brodnik, had two titres test positive for OPMV in both the carrier animal that he recieved, as well as the mate that it affected (both are now dead). What are the odds that the seller is selling snakes with two separate viruses, both with identical symptoms, timelines, cultures (right down to the secondary Pseudomonas Aeruginosa pneumonia infection), and deaths?

I strongly suggest that we draw blood from the 2 previously sick females and run titres on both -- they were sick for many weeks, and it has been months since they got better. If OPMV is present, they will definitely have antibodies left. I also suggest we draw blood from each of my remaining healthy snakes that never got sick to check for exposure.

I am really upset by the fact that you chose to violate patient confidentiality and share info regarding my pets' medical records with a stranger -- but even more upset by the fact that you hadn't even shared it with me or my veterinarian first. I need you to tell me what you have found so far, what your thoughts are, why it is taking so long, and how we can retest things to get a difinitive answer.


~* Jen *~

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This is the one and only contact I have ever recieved from Elliot until now, before we were able to send him anything. Since then, he was only in rare contact with Dr. Gordon and his office.

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Re: Ophidian Paramyxovirus infection‏
From: Elliott Jacobson (JacobsonE@vetmed.ufl.edu)
You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as unsafe
Sent: Mon 11/19/08 6:54 AM
To: jennifer.harrison@hotmail.com

There are several viral infections in snakes that overlap with paramyxovirus infection. Your outbreak may be caused by this virus or it may not. The snake paramyxovirus is distinct from any other paramyxovirus based on sequencing. I know that some in Europe have used the vaccine for pigeon paramyxovirus in snakes. I do not believe that there are any adequately controlled studies to show that it is efficacious. If your veterinarian wants to know what samples to collect and how to collect them, he/she can contact me.

Good luck,

EJ Elliott Jacobson,
DVM, PhD, DACZM
Professor of Zoological Medicine
Bldg 2015, SW 16th Ave.
SACS, Box 100126
College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Florida
Gainesville, Fl 32610

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Because of our limited contact with him, Dr. Gordon and I began doing our own research. Based on his findings through his own library, as well as things I printed and brought to him and also communication with a vet in Germany that had experienced this virus first hand, we decided to go ahead and try the vaccine anyway as we really had nothing to lose. Dr. Gordon is not just a stand-by cat and dog vet hanging on Dr. Jacobsen's every word. He has his own years of experience with reptiles and does a LOT of research on exotics on his own, for both his private practice and his work with the UW. It was under his guidance that we chose the path that we did, and I had no logical reason to dispute anything he advised me.

For whoever it was that said "I am refusing to do what is obviously necessary" or something along those lines -- you would too if you were in my shoes and facing the deaths of the very animals you busted your ass to earn and love with a passion that is only superceded by your daughter and your husband. I cannot in good conscience destroy these living, breathing, otherwise-healthy creatures unless I am given undeniable evidence that that is my only choice. Until then, I have no reason to kill them -- I am going to hold out for hope that they can be kept alive and that I can continue with the one and only hobby that I love. If it comes back that they need to be destroyed -- then I will either make that decision, or decide to keep them all as pets and end my business. For now, I will continue working with what I have privately and give things a few years to get confirmed results (whatever they may be), and make my decision after that point.

Dave (Ember): What I have left are as follows: My 2 beloved pets (Spoon and Lucky, striped male and normal female), my adult male clown (Hollywood), my adult male spider (Dash), a breedable sub-adult male genetic stripe that has been here on breeding loan for the entire ordeal, unfortunately arriving last fall right before this all came down and due to safety reasons, couldn't be returned yet (Jack). Yes, his owner is a friend of mine that has been kept very up to date on everything and is aware of what the potential outcome may be. We have our own contract that will be followed if anything happens to Jack. The other remaining animals are a project female that I raised up from a tiny 50-gram CH baby (Leilani -- she is one of the ones that would be hardest to say goodbye to), and an adult CBB yellow stripe female that is another project and unreplaceable as she was the only survivor of her clutch (Misty). Those 7 animals are the vaccinated "Lucky 7" that I had segregated away in a different room back in October and they all avoided becoming ill. Then I also have 2 adult females (Angel and Tarzan) that became ill, somehow managed to ovulate and lay fertile eggs, and upon vaccination returned to normal health. They are feeding and thriving and have been for months. Those 9 total are all that is left from my original collection. There are also my 2 baby butter motley cornsnakes and my 3 rainbow boas, but this virus appears to be only a ball python strain and as such they all remained unaffected. I did vaccinate them anyway, just in case. In a separate quarantine room (my bedroom), I have the following new additions (based on being told by the 2 vets that I am past the infectious period): An adult striped female, 1.1 adult co-dom genetic reduced patterns from Ian G., and 9 kingsnakes (1.1 baby blue-eyed blondes, 1.1 baby Carlsbad stripes, 0.1 baby coastal stripe, 1.0 baby hypo coastal stripe, 1.0 adult desert wide stripe, 0.1 adult albino stripe, and 0.1 adult Mexican black king). If I have to destroy everything, I will not be starting over. I will never be able to replace the animals that I have. I don't have any friends that can keep snakes for me. They either already have snakes of their own, or are deathly afraid of them and would never keep any in their house, or are not allowed to keep animals in their residence.