OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

This is going to be my last post on this topic, as it's getting boring to be honest.

I think my way is better, my opinion, simple. You think yours in simple, fine, by all means carry on. :gj:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

How about we just say you're really an unpleasant close minded know-it-all (in your mind only) who has nothing positive to ad to any conversation he tries to control, which is every conversation he takes part in.

Does that come across clear and concise? Can you understand the words that are coming from my fingers? I know you don't care, no need to expound upon that, but do you really, deeply, honestly, understand what I'm saying to you?

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Yes sir lol.

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Originally Posted by mattb

Then other than looking nice and taking up more space what benefits are scientifically know about your keeping over others? In a way that your thinking is you should have the house set up as a viv and let prey live as they normally would so the snakes could hunt their prey just as they would in the wild.

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Nothing concrete, but Skip's post earlier raised a few interesting points.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

People`s pythons thrive in tubs as well.

I'm going to say this one last thing to you because you're ridiculous and hard-headed:

You'd get a ball python, and set it up in a naturalistic viv just to prove to us that you can get it to feed?

Oh.....my.............

No........worddddddsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.....




Please, for your sake, I pray that you are not like this in real life.

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I said that, because you stated that people have used tight tubs etc to get non feeders feeding. When actually it only means that they didn't feel secure enough in the set up they were initially provided with.

I said that I was going to stop talking to you, but I really don`t like it when people put words in my mouth.

Where on earth did I say that people used tight tubs to get non feeders feedingÉ

I`m sorry, but I never said that. Unless you can show me and I have had a lapse in memory (which is possible), I won`t let you put words into my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I'm close minded because i will never keep a snake in an empty tank? Ok then...I'm very close minded then...Seeing as keeping them in that type of set up has no benefits over a big, naturalistic viv/tub, aside from cost and the ability to keep more snakes.

No one seems to be willing to show their spacious racking set ups though..

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Here is my largest female in the largest tub I currently use:
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...a/IMG_1121.jpg

I will admit that the tub is not as long as she is, but she has enough room to stretch out. I am currently in the process of planning a rack that will use the Sterilite 41qt tubs, which have more length to them. For a majority of my snakes these tubs are plenty big enough because they are not as long as she is.

Some day when I own my own place or at least have a room dedicated to my reptiles I would love to naturalistic cages setup for all of my snakes. Since a majority of my snakes are currently in my living room (my bedroom having been taken over by crested gecko cages and the cages for my boas) the rack saves on space. I use the minimal setup because it is easiest for me. With aspen and cypress mulch bedding my snakes would spill their water and I would have to replace the bedding often, it started to get expensive and wasn't worth it to me.

I'm sure there is some benefit to keeping snakes in naturalistic habitats, but all of my snakes appear healthy and that's what matters the most to me. I've said it several times and I will say it again, my biggest problem with what you said was that people like me lack passion because our setups aren't naturalistic. I love my reptiles and I love to share my reptiles. My passion is sharing my love of reptiles with other people, not replicating natural settings, though I think with my crested geckos I come close. They may have fake plants, but they all have plants they can hide in. :P

First thing in the morning, I'm going to import Ghana turf(plants included with a payment plan) from Africa and start my own Termite colony in which they will construct a mound. This weekend I will convert my entire bedroom into Neo Africa with a working stream and heating system to replace the sun. Then, I will release every single one of my snakes into Neo Africa along with half of my breeding rodent colony. Hopefully there will now be a sustaining ecosystem. Maybe I'll throw a few wildebeests in for good measure.

Thank you Crot. I have been inspired.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

The more you post the more I realize you know less than you think.

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Originally Posted by John1982

The more you post the more I realize you know less than you think.

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Sorry, this was meant for Crotalids but probably pertains to most of you and definitely me too. Bunch of insufferable know-it-alls as far as ourselves are concerned. I'm always willing to learn, have a good debate but if you don't think the way I do I'll call you small brained and shut my ears to your retorts cause I don't listen to such nonsense. Did I mention you should accept everything I say because I'm a boss and if you do things otherwise you're close minded?

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Maybe you care to read the second document, and tell me the LD 50 value given for nasicornis? I will save you the time, 8.6mg per Kg. That is a low potency! That figure is for intramuscular envenomation, most intravenous envenomations will be near fatal/fatal.

Bitis gabonica had a intramuscular LD50 of 5.2. Much strong than that of nasicornis, yet it is accepted that it isn a potent venom. It is the amount injected that makes the three Bitis species dangerous.

I never said it was non fatal, I said it wasn't potent. As you don't seem to be able to understand the difference between the two words. A venom doesn't need to be potent to be fatal. There are many more factors involved that decide whether an envenomation will be fatal or not!

I like how you couldn't answer any of the other questions I ask. I'm surprised you don't have any pictures of snakes you have kept, seems odd.

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On a scale of 1-5, one being the lowest and five the highest they rate a 3. Taipan's are a 5 and Copperheads are a 1. So how exactly is 3 not potent? The LD50 for B.n. is 0.02 of an oz for a 150lb man. And that LD50 of 8.6mg per kg is intra-muscular. Intra-venous it's much higher for the B.n. than the B.g.; 1.1mg/kg vs. 6.7mg/kg respectively. Also those LD50 scores are based on MICE not humans. Monkeys are far more sensitive to B.n/B.g venom than mice are. I am pretty sure we are more comparative to primates than mice.

here something you can maybe grasp. LD50 for various snakes

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Interesting! I will have to check out what I can find on this. As in, are they climbing and getting into nests, etc or are they ambushing on the ground. Not trying to say they aren't adept, quite the opposite. I would just be interested in learning more of their abilities and if the risk is minimal enough for the added activity. Seeing as how it wouldn't help them as it does in the wild, in obtaining prey. Unless I start hanging the rats from branches...heh that might actually be neat to see!

Thanks!

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There was study that I posted a link to and shared with several people. That study outlined that ball pythons are efficient and active hunters of avian prey. To the point that it made up a large percentage of their diet. PM me your e-mail and I will send you the paper in it's entirety.

Before I posted the link and the study in all it's helvetica glory, several people, worshippers of the tub, the ASF rat as a complete and natural food source and the League of Strictly Earthbound Ball Python Owners attempted to rat pack my fat butt, claiming that I was a liar, or better yet, cripplingly stupid. Luckily, I pulled the peer reviewed study out from behind my ear and shut them up. Now many of those doubters and even some of the shrillest of them will solemnly and sagely inform every newbie that ball pythons are bird eaters and can climb trees.

Which brings us to an interesting point. Unless my reading comprehension skills are vastly declining am I hearing that some people don't think that there are measurable ways to detect acute stress levels in captive snakes? That there are no ways to determine if the act of handling, cage cleaning or other human interactions are upsetting a snake?

I say that there are. I could even propose an experiment in which we maybe could determine if the mystic potion butt rust enchi burnt toast ball in your collection (you know the one you bought for $10K a year ago as an "investment" but now cannot give away) is less stressed in a off-gassing plastic storage box or in a properly outfitted glass aquarium.

Who's game?

What do you have in mind Skiploader, seriously. There are several stress studies done using mice and rats that invovle the placement of cannulas into the brain in specific regions to measure neural activity in vivo. I'm not sure if anybody has thought about doing similar research with snakes but I am just genuinely curious. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by ewaldrep

What do you have in mind Skiploader, seriously. There are several stress studies done using mice and rats that invovle the placement of cannulas into the brain in specific regions to measure neural activity in vivo. I'm not sure if anybody has thought about doing similar research with snakes but I am just genuinely curious. Thanks.

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They've been doing it for years with snakes.

For a while the gold standard was analyzing tongue flicks - rate and movement. As I alluded to before, Roger Conant was attempting to measure stress levels in captive snakes by how many tongue flicks a specific action would induce.

Now it's cortisol levels.

Again, the herd ASSumes we just can't be sure just what snakes like. There is a library of evidence, from published papers to a compendium of old zookeeper practices and guidelines that again proves that going with the herd isn't always the best course of action.

In the late 80s and 90s, several studies were done on captive reptiles in an attempt to measure how stressed they get in captivity. A catch all book was published of these studies called the Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles that summarized most of these findings or linked to even more studies. Another paper that contains this data is Evaluating Pain and Stress in Reptiles. The book is still available but is expensive. Many of the papers that are discussed in the book are hard to find even on line.

For those that want to nerd up on their reptile behavior reading can look into resources taken from VA Lance when he was at the SD Zoo and from Warwick's work. You can read up on tongue flicking cues as they are associated with cage cleaning and spatial relationships. Zookeepers 35 to 50 years ago were already forming and proving the conclusion that are widely and almost completely ignored today on the forums. It was Lance that showed the correlation between respiratory rates and hormonal changes in habituated animals due to handling stresses.

Today, the common measurement for determining stress in fairly non-responsive captive reptiles is performed by measuring plasma concentrations of corticosteriods in blood samples immediately after the event to grade how reptiles respond to activities like being held, being restrained, having a hand inside their cages, being moved to a new cage, etc.

Bottom line - stress levels are higher in the first 21 days of an animal's captivity, and then fall off if the animal is left alone. However routine maintenance procedures will spike up stress levels even after animals are well acclimated. Ball pythons don't show elevated stress levels when handled briefly without being restrained but steroid levels will spike when they are exposed to new environments or routine activities like cleaning a cage or rearranging the decor.

In other words, many snake species never really acclimate to cleanings and prolonged handlings, irregardless of who the keeper is. In more active snakes, those spikes manifest in aggressive or defensive behavior. In ball pythons, plasma measurements are needed to quantify what the snake is "feeling".

Keeping large and fairly intelligent colubrids like cribos and dispholidines makes you realize that even the most alert and observant snakes never really get comfortable with you. The problem with ball pythons is that even when they are agitated, they do a poor job of showing it.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

First thing in the morning, I'm going to import Ghana turf(plants included with a payment plan) from Africa and start my own Termite colony in which they will construct a mound. This weekend I will convert my entire bedroom into Neo Africa with a working stream and heating system to replace the sun. Then, I will release every single one of my snakes into Neo Africa along with half of my breeding rodent colony. Hopefully there will now be a sustaining ecosystem. Maybe I'll throw a few wildebeests in for good measure.

Thank you Crot. I have been inspired.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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I used to have a link to a forum of a small group of aficionados who were dedicated to providing their herps with some of the most realistic environments you have ever seen. Complete climate controlled, simulating light and season/weather cycles with live plants and live substrates. I sold a pair of olfersii to a member and he sent me the link. I'll have to look it up and post it.

I sheepishly admit to being a user of the plebeian tub for some of my animals and looking at these beautiful and complicated environments was very inspiring.