Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I believe I've already addressed the idea of it being cruel to rodents, and the time involved would be several hours. So, how about not being overly worried about the rodents, which have a reasonably quick and humane death, and not being overly worried about the snakes, which rarely take any injury from their prey...with the bonus that time is saved. The snakes also get fresh, healthy food.

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Well no, you didn't really address the fact that you're inducing terror to the animal and the pain it experiences from a snake killing it. Considering pre-killed is kinder to the animal in that respect, I don't think your cruelty argument has a leg to stand on. Especially considering the reference to people doing it because they like to see other things suffer. That in itself, is cruel.

TBH, I'm more worried about the mental state of people who do it for kicks.

By the way, I can't really buy the convenience excuse when f/t is not really that hard to do and arguably even easier because you have to supervise a live feeding whereas with pre-killed you drop it in with the snake and can use the time doing something else.

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I think your argument against live feeding would be like forcing your dog to wear shoes all the time because he might get a scratch on his pad. That would be minimizing his risk of injury as much as possible, lol.

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Not really. There have been many, many documented cases of mice or rats giving nasty injuries to snakes. Unless you allow a dog to step all over sharp, broken glass, then comparing the two is a pretty big stretch.

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My rats are more cruel to each when the occasional fight breaks out, than the snakes are to them. You can't keep the rats apart because of it, because that would be cruel as well, and predicting such fights isn't possible.

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Playfighting or showing dominance is more cruel? How so? If they're fighting to the death, then you'd have to separate them.

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There's no end to the amount of discomfort in the world...but there is a limit to how much you need to be concerned about it.

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So why should that stop me from being concerned about particular YT videos, or people simply feeding live simply because they enjoy it?

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Your FT rodents came from a facility where rats occasionally killed each other messily. Just letting you know.

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Which I have absolutely no way of knowing or preventing, thus it is not relevant.

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I don't agree with the practice of posting videos of feeding live animals to pets on YouTube, but I wouldn't call the human reaction to watching predation 'sadism'.

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Deriving pleasure from the pain of another is textboox sadism.

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It's not sadism. Humans are predators, and when they watch these things happen, they identify with the predator--it excites their instincts, and there is nothing at all strange about that, or wrong with it. It is a natural reaction.

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Natural to a child, maybe. But to an adult that can understand what context means? Right.

As human beings we have higher cognitive functions, know right from wrong, etc. We aren't wild animals, we're animals intelligent enough to recognise the suffering of others. Putting one animal into a situation where it will most likely suffer and chuckle about its pain and death is called "being sick in the head". It seems to me you're trying to justify this behaviour under the guise of it being "natural". Perhaps we're on the same level as all the other animals then? No, I don't think so. You know what else is natural? Rape. Happens all the time in the wild, animals can't control their urges and there you go.

Doesn't mean it isn't sadistic for the rapist to enjoy doing what they do. And it doesn't mean it isn't wrong either.

Tell me, if I threw a snake to a small space with a larger, carnivorous animal, filmed it and laughed as it was ripped to pieces... I suppose there's nothing wrong with that too? It's "natural", after all.

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It's the reason why chase and kill scenes are included in documentaries about predators--people get a thrill from it.
It's not the suffering of the prey that creates this reaction, it's the empathy for the hunter.

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Thrill of the hunt != thrill from seeing something cry out in pain. What empathy for the hunter? What are you talking about?

Making comparisons of thrilling predatory chases in the wild to intentionally creating a situation to make another animal suffer, and laughing about it is not even comparable. Not even in the slightest bit. You're using a naturalistic fallacy here, suggesting that just because something might be natural means it isn't wrong. Well, if you think causing animals pain and filming it for laughs isn't ethically objectionable in the least then I'm going to really have to question the premise of that.

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which rarely take any injury from their prey

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Yet hundreds of pet snakes are killed every year by rodents. If not from infections from bites, especially bites to the eyes, then diseases from mites that could have been easily prevented by freezing and thawing a pre-killed rodent. And why almost every single care sheet and private breeding organization that sells snakes tells owners it's far safer for the animal to feed pre-killed. Feeding live is also illegal in many countries, and the snake pet trade is just fine. Just for fun, here's a picture of a juvenile ball python that was killed and then partially eaten by a mouse. Not even a rat, a mouse.

Even watching it won't change a quick bite to the eye. Human reaction time just isn't fast enough, nor will you be able to predict it. Picky eaters or no, even a large corporate chain like PetCo has all of their snakes on frozen/thawed from pinkes through fuzzies and hoppers and adults.

Feeding live mice, rats, rabbits, etc. on up to captive predatory animals is unnecessary. Whatever vague 'enrichment' you give the animal should be tempered by the needless suffering of the prey item. There's also practical reasons not to do it. Captive bred animals are not wild and prey can fight back. And I have seen snakes, even big snakes, killed by careless owners who drop a rat in and walk away. Rodents and birds used as prey items can carry ticks and other parasites which freezing gets rid of.

Here is a major snake forum detailing what a live animal can do to a snake. If you really think there is minimal risk to the snake, then you are severely misinformed and are just trying to find excuses. This is why I think that live feeding, if the snake can be fed f/t is highly irresponsible and arguably unnecessarily cruel. Now, I've read some previous posts on this site, and I have found that many people here see feeder animals as "objects" rather than living things. That is quite concerning, and further illustrates the point that if people see feeders as inanimate objects, then they should not even be owning such animals or pets dependant on them. Your snakes might be priority #1 here, but even feeder animals deserve respect. After all, they've giving up their lives for your pet's benefit. And yet I see people here treat them like rubbish and like objects. If that is their "opinion" on such animals, then I say "stuff these brutes, they can shove it".

Gavin you are doing the same thing missy king did. Most people on this site will agree that if you have a snake eating F/T and you are a pet owner with a hand full of snakes then great F/T is great. The problem is that you are demonizing feeding live. Feeding live makes a lot of sense for those of us who have problem eaters. I am not going to pre-kill a rodent just to throw it away. Yes I know I can freeze it, but as I have said I will only freeze once and my snake can go months without eating. Having one rodent die a slightly more painful death is, in my opinion, more humane than killing 2 painlessly. There are people who do things because they like being cruel. Ok granted. You aren't going to get through to them and by lumping me in with them you taint the conversation. Most people on this forum are concerned with the health and well being of our snakes and the pain we inflict on feeders to keep our snakes healthy. That being said the feeders I raise have much less pain in my care than they would in the wild. They live longer, they are healthier and they die with less pain. I am happy when I hear the squeek of a rodent being constricted. Not because I am a sadist. I am happy for the same reason I will be happy when I hear the cry of my child getting immunized. I know that pain and death are part of life and that rodent has to die for my snake to live. Whether it dies under questionable conditions in a rodent raising business and is shipped to me frozen, or gets constricted in front of me, its death is necessary. We are sitting here quibbling over how. I assure you that if I have the option to die in a gas chamber, have my spine severed or get eaten by a lion. I am not going to take any great solace in the least painful option. I am going to be really upset regardless, and how dare someone feel better about themselves for having spared me the lion only to severe my spine.

Oh and Gavin, don't get me wrong I agree with much of what you are saying. My only point is that not all feeding live is the same, or done for poor reasons. Not all snake species are the same and an argument for one species doesn't necessarily hold for a BP. I think you are placing too much emphasis on the "suffering" of the rodents. Not that I think there isn't an element of pain involved. I just feel that the suffering in the animals life must be taken into account as well as the pain in an alternate death. I consider the last minute of an animals life far less important than the life leading up to that and far less grave than the fact that I am facilitating its death.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

The problem is that you are demonizing feeding live.

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Not necessarily. I did mention that if it's a last resort thing, I'm fine with it. But I would say feeding live just for entertainment is a pretty demonic thing to do!

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There are people who do things because they like being cruel. Ok granted. You aren't going to get through to them and by lumping me in with them you taint the conversation.

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Some people are just generally ignorant, with the facts presented, it might. But that matters not, the criticism against such people is warranted. And as I said... genuine reasons such as with people like you, I have no beef with. It's only those who "do it for the lulz" or use weak excuses (like it's 'inconvenient').

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I am happy when I hear the squeek of a rodent being constricted. Not because I am a sadist. I am happy for the same reason I will be happy when I hear the cry of my child getting immunized. I know that pain and death are part of life and that rodent has to die for my snake to live. Whether it dies under questionable conditions in a rodent raising business and is shipped to me frozen, or gets constricted in front of me, its death is necessary.

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And I understand that! Which is why it's not directed to folks such as yourself.

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I think you are placing too much emphasis on the "suffering" of the rodents.

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Too much? Hmm, I don't agree. Mainly because I am concerned about unnecessary cruelty to the animal in question, which I believe is something to consider.

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I consider the last minute of an animals life far less important than the life leading up to that and far less grave than the fact that I am facilitating its death.

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Fair enough, but the method of death should still be considered! This is why, for example, I use a snap trap if I have a mouse problem, and never a glue trap (these torture traps rile me up even more, but that's a topic for another day).

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Not necessarily. I did mention that if it's a last resort thing, I'm fine with it. But I would say feeding live just for entertainment is a pretty demonic thing to do!

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There you go, doing it again. There are reasons between last resort and entertainment.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Some people are just generally ignorant, with the facts presented, it might. But that matters not, the criticism against such people is warranted. And as I said... genuine reasons such as with people like you, I have no beef with. It's only those who "do it for the lulz" or use weak excuses (like it's 'inconvenient').

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I don't consider inconvenient to be a week excuse. Depending on the person it can be a perfectly logical reason. I am fine with criticizing the "do it for the lulz" people. I just think you need to be careful you don't cross into lumping the good guys that would otherwise agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

And I understand that! Which is why it's not directed to folks such as yourself.

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Thank you. I felt that your comments were in some ways critical of me and people like me. That's all I wanted to point out.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Too much? Hmm, I don't agree. Mainly because I am concerned about unnecessary cruelty to the animal in question, which I believe is something to consider.

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You are using words like unnecessary and cruelty and they are sorrily very subjective. What you consider unnecessarily cruel others might not. I don't necessarily accept your assertion that feeding live is unnecessarily cruel. We all agree that the rodent feels pain and we all know its going to die. As long as a person is not feeding live specifically because its more painful to the rodent I don't find it cruel. Casually indifferent to its pain? Sure, but not cruel. Again my rodents feel much less pain in total with me than they would in the wild and I would argue less pain than they would if raised by someone who cared less or was looking to make money on thier life. You may not feel that makes up for the last minute of pain in their life but I do.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Fair enough, but the method of death should still be considered! This is why, for example, I use a snap trap if I have a mouse problem, and never a glue trap (these torture traps rile me up even more, but that's a topic for another day).

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I think that's a very valid point that I agree with 100%. Its not analogous though. The death by BP is not even close to a glue trap. I feed appropriately sized rodents and my BP dispatches them very quickly. If my BP was a worse hunter like my king snake was, I would have had to reconsider. For every callous keeper on this forum there many more who really care. I think your message would be better intended if maybe worse received by the average Ball Python keeper than by the members of this forum. The average person on this forum is here because they care enough to put in the time to learn about the many aspects of husbandry. I am all for extolling the virtues of F/T or pre-killed but people can ruin that too. They can feed partially frozen prey. They can buy from sources that don't freeze fresh or who kill their rodents inhumanly. They can cook the rodent in boiling water. They can lay a wet F/T rodent on substrate which can result in impaction in extreme cases. Far better that we find out the what people are doing and why and attack the problems not the action.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Too much? Hmm, I don't agree. Mainly because I am concerned about unnecessary cruelty to the animal in question, which I believe is something to consider.

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To clarify I know what cruel means in a dictionary definition. I think that those of us who have a hobby that requires animals to die and/or those of us who are not vegetarians should not use cruel as defined "causing or conducive to injury, grief, or pain." By that definition we are cruel for eating meat, and cruel for keeping a carnivore as a pet. I feel like you are trying to use it defined as "unrelieved by leniency." And to the extent that I agree with you I agree with this definition. The problem is that what might be cruel to a rodent at a given point must be weighed against the well being of the snake, the other rodents, and most importantly the feeders quality of life leading up to that last minute. I prefer to use the definition "disposed to inflict pain or suffering : devoid of humane feelings" and in that regard most people on this forum are not cruel and non are cruel simply because they feed live.

There are pros and cons to feeding live, p/k, and f/t, and there is nothing wrong with any one of them.
It is not a "right or wrong way of doing things" topic.

A thread like this is useful as long as we share the pros and cons of each option, our own experiences with each method, and maybe even our reason why the method(s) we use work best for us as an individual keeper, and why.

That way anyone reading this thread, or a similar thread, can take all of that information and form their own opinion, and then see what works best for themselves.

Once you start judging others for having a different opinion and approach to keeping and maintaining their own collection, whether it is done due to having a different opinion, simply out of convenience, or even as a source of entertainment, you are detracting from the usefulness of your post, the thread itself, and also the friendliness of the friendliest online community for ALL of your herping needs !

This post itself is very much towing the line.
:rolleyes:

I agree with alot that has been said thus far. Something that I would like to pint out though is, whether people get a kick out of their ball hunting and eating or not is actually irrelevant. If you feed live the same thing is going to happen. So what if you watch and like it. The animal will be dispatched in the same method. Personally to me those people are just enjoying their pet. Yes another animal dies. But it's feeding their animals. Now... I saw this before and I Said it then as well. I feed live out of conveinence... Yes. Mostly because I'm not going to thaw out 10 rats and feed another 50 live ones. That just isn't going to work. So I feed 60 something live ones and get through my feeding routine without all the craziness. That doesn't mean I'm lazy, nor does it mean that I'm cruel or anything else. It means I have a large collection and I do best for that collection with my lifestyle. I have not had any sort of injury to my collection from feeding live in over 2 years. And even then it was a little scratch that healed quickly. A day or two later you couldn't even see it. How do I know? Well because I specifically have a procedure for feeding my balls. And everyone is well watched and any feeding notes are well documented. Not every ball is ok with pk or ft. I know that if you came to my house and thawed 65 rats and went and placed one in each tub maybe 3 would eat. Then if you took the other 62 that didn't and played the rat zombie game feeding would take 2-4 hours. Again, would you do that weekly? When you have other responsibilities like cleaning cages rat/ball/ or otherwise? How about when you have to feed 200 other animals? For me it's Give and take. The welfare for everyone in a whole is most important to me. Cleaned, watered, fed is a daily thing for some of my Herps. Weather you agree or not is unimportant. But try not to group folks with being lazy or sadistic

You can give your ball pythons parasites from ft. I don't know if you know that. It does happen. Just as injury and deaths happen from ft as well. Too hot, or too cold and your ball goes into shock and could die. Accidentally cooking or bad rodents etc and your ball could die.

What I do know Is I breed my own rats. They are healthy, parasite free and kept in immaculate conditions. You should see some rodent breeding operations that breed to provide ft. I'm sure some of them aren't the most pleasant conditions for the rats. I'm sure even some of them are inhumane.
Freezing doesn't kill all parasites. I beleive there's a few members here who's balls are being treated or have been treated for tape worm and they were only fed ft.

So like I have said before there are many pros and cons to each way. Just because you feed live because its more convenient, or you like to watch your snake eat, doesn't make it worse or cruel to the rats or anything like that. If people were sticking live rats in tubs letting the snake constrict it and then taking the rat away and lettin the snake do it over and over again I would consider that cruel. But them again we all have our own opinions.
Btw fwiw yes rodents and other live prey can kill snakes. Many of those situations like the picture you captioned Gavin, is from days or weeks of a rodent being left in a closed off area with the snake no food no water. So yes their instinct tell them how to survive. But that isn't the normal, and you won't find one person in here anyways that just throws rodents in tubs or cages and walks away and that's the end of it. Every technique has its own procedure. You follow that and you'll really Hve no issues. You don't and either way can kill your snake.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by Egapal

There you go, doing it again. There are reasons between last resort and entertainment.

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I don't agree with them.

If your snake can feed on f/t, then what reason is there to feed live?

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I don't consider inconvenient to be a week excuse. Depending on the person it can be a perfectly logical reason.

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I don't consider being lazy or being indifferent to the feeder's welfare as logical. Saying something like "oh who cares if it suffers" is pretty weak.

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You are using words like unnecessary and cruelty and they are sorrily very subjective. What you consider unnecessarily cruel others might not. I don't necessarily accept your assertion that feeding live is unnecessarily cruel.

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Well that's the beauty of discussion, isn't it? It all depends on context, really.

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I think that's a very valid point that I agree with 100%. Its not analogous though. The death by BP is not even close to a glue trap.

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Wasn't really supposed to be analogous, the principle behind it is the same however.

As for the rest of your post, fair enough. I have nothing really to argue there.