I think my snake loves me

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Originally Posted by BeansTheDerp

I voted yes, but for a reason I will explain. one day I was cleaning my ball python's enclosure and I had him in a snake bag, the bag was far away from me and between me and him was a vent blowing warm air that was around his enclosure temps. the vent was closer to him than I was, like way closer, but instead of going to the vent he went to ME. and crawled up in my lap and looked up at me and curled up into the "my body is my pillow" position WHICH MEANS IT IS RELAXED AND CALM. and yeah every will say "Oh that's because it trusts you" well, doesn't trust have to do with love, like seriously! you trust something because you feel calm and good around them and you love them. and seriously how does the scientist that found out they're missing a part of their brain not know if they might have a different part of the brain that allows them to feel the emotion? and plus, scientists thought they didn't have ears, but they were just covered by scales. and so many people have TRIED to make me think other wise, but what about the time when I was crying because I got to stressed out about something, AND THIS LITTLE NOODLE, looked me in the eyes, and pressed his nose onto mine and held it there for a little bit. THIS LIL DUDE BOOPED ME. and another time when I was upset he went around my neck and started flexing his muscles (keep in mind he's only a year old this wouldn't be some sort of mating thing or whatever) and it was like he was massaging me, he's done it to my dad as well but the things he does, it's so obvious. you can SEE IT, in his eyes and his behavior. and when at the vet they came out and they were like, "he was so behaved! usually they're a bit like 'ew no get away' but he didn't care!"


Again it's my opinion and my proof and so many people can give different things of why he does each thing but honestly I don't see it as anything else because, when your family member is sad wouldn't you hug them? maybe give them a neck massage! also Beans let's me Boop his nose whenever and he let's me pat him on the head and pet under his chin, he'll afterwards even go into the "body is my pillow" formation, believe the stories or not, I know some of you won't, but hey if you don't want to believe me that's your loss not mine.

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and another thing, how do they associate me with food if I just put the rat in the enclosure and watch him eat, I don't hand feed him, the only thing they WOULD see you as with food is that you watch them eat, and he doesn't even see me put the rat in he'll just be in his hide. so how in the world would they be able to see me as the food giver if they don't see me give the food.

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Originally Posted by BeansTheDerp

and another thing, how do they associate me with food if I just put the rat in the enclosure and watch him eat, I don't hand feed him, the only thing they WOULD see you as with food is that you watch them eat, and he doesn't even see me put the rat in he'll just be in his hide. so how in the world would they be able to see me as the food giver if they don't see me give the food.

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They see you come in, they get fed. They associate you coming in the room and going to their enclosure with getting food. It gives them a positive association to you and they "want" to be around you because you have a positive association. They don't have the chemical in the brain for love. They might want to be around you because you benefit them but they don't "love" you.

well my snake is in a big black tub, the top has a back pet safe mesh spot for us to see in. and he's usually in his hide so he wouldn't see anyways! and once I remove the hides, he just see's a rat in his face. and me watching him eat, you don't look at the person watching you eat and be like "oh they must have supplied this burger I now stick near their side for more burger." that's just not what you would do, and it even sounds weird for a animal.

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Originally Posted by BeansTheDerp

, you don't look at the person watching you eat and be like "oh they must have supplied this burger I now stick near their side for more burger." that's just not what you would do, and it even sounds weird for a animal.

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This is exactly what animals do though. There are tons of examples in nature of animals associating certain areas or things with food or water, and therefore are "drawn" to them. Think about African elephants, who use the same migration routes year after year after year. They do it because they know where the water is. The matriarch of a group of elephants leads the rest of the herd down those routes because she associates them with what they need. Sea turtles will continuously go back to the same nesting grounds to lay their eggs. They don't love the route or the nesting ground, it's just ingrained into their brain to behave that way. Your snake crawls to you because every time it's gotten to eat there you are.

Your argument that a human wouldn't do that isn't entirely accurate either. How do you think humans survived on Earth as long as we have? We learn to associate certain things with danger, pain, safety, warmth, etc etc. I don't love fire, but if it's cold outside and there's a fire I know I can go over there and warm up. That's all a reptile is doing, associating you with food, safety, warmth, something that benefits them. It doesn't mean that YOU can't love your snake, but your snake doesn't love you.

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Originally Posted by Hugsplox

This is exactly what animals do though. There are tons of examples in nature of animals associating certain areas or things with food or water, and therefore are "drawn" to them. Think about African elephants, who use the same migration routes year after year after year. They do it because they know where the water is. The matriarch of a group of elephants leads the rest of the herd down those routes because she associates them with what they need. Sea turtles will continuously go back to the same nesting grounds to lay their eggs. They don't love the route or the nesting ground, it's just ingrained into their brain to behave that way. Your snake crawls to you because every time it's gotten to eat there you are.

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And also there are tons of examples of training animals in captivity to associate certain sounds/visuals/smells with food. You can train backyard chickens to run to you when you ring a bell by ringing the bell whenever you feed them or give them treats. Do the chickens physically observe the bell handing them the food? No, obviously not, but they learned over time that "sound of bell => food is here". Clicker training is also very much a thing with many types of animals, who learn to associate the sound of the clicker with food. The snake in question probably learned that "human standing over enclosure watching me => food is here" (also even if he doesn't see you, he can probably sense you in other ways, such as smell, or the sound of the enclosure being opened, etc).

And I'll add that even cats and dogs, which I regard as fairly intelligent animals with a higher emotional capacity than snakes, make the same types of food associations as your snake probably is. And humans make food associations too, even if we don't realize it. We're all just animals, after all.

Anyone else having this thread highlighted as having new messages despite none being here? :confusd:

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Anyone else having this thread highlighted as having new messages despite none being here? :confusd:

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Yes, but that's normal- it's because someone answered the poll- so that shows up as a "post". ;)

i think snakes are much more intelligent than people realize - which is being confirmed with recent intelligence studies pertaining to them - i also think they’re capable of base emotions and are emotionally intelligent - i aim to do more research into this however i would point out anecdotally that there have been peer reviewed studies involving bees and arachnids which demonstrated that they are capable of experiencing base emotions eg: when subjected to negative stimuli they produced more chemicals that we typically associate with fear and stress in humans - insomuch as reptiles can be socialized and insomuch as humans can form bonds overtime with specific snakes who do indeed feel these base emotions i think i could say they love me in that sort of Star Trek Data “I’ve gotten use to you” sort of way you know

The two main "emotions" I think most if not all animals can feel is stress and contentment. I believe reptiles also possess fear and familiarity, and some more may experience a food-associated or pseudo-companionship type of relationship. Many definitely enjoy the warmth from people too. I have owned frogs which, at the very least, can understand the behaviors and actions I took before I fed them and of course turtles often splash around and reach for their owners in their tanks if they think they are being fed. Its very cute :)

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i think snakes are much more intelligent than people realize - which is being confirmed with recent intelligence studies pertaining to them - i also think they’re capable of base emotions and are emotionally intelligent - i aim to do more research into this however i would point out anecdotally that there have been peer reviewed studies involving bees and arachnids which demonstrated that they are capable of experiencing base emotions eg: when subjected to negative stimuli they produced more chemicals that we typically associate with fear and stress in humans - insomuch as reptiles can be socialized and insomuch as humans can form bonds overtime with specific snakes who do indeed feel these base emotions i think i could say they love me in that sort of Star Trek Data “I’ve gotten use to you” sort of way you know

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Originally Posted by Animallover3541

The two main "emotions" I think most if not all animals can feel is stress and contentment. I believe reptiles also possess fear and familiarity, and some more may experience a food-associated or pseudo-companionship type of relationship. Many definitely enjoy the warmth from people too. I have owned frogs which, at the very least, can understand the behaviors and actions I took before I fed them and of course turtles often splash around and reach for their owners in their tanks if they think they are being fed. Its very cute :)

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I agree. Not based on any official study, but just my experience of many years living with & knowing so many snakes. And seeing that they remember & trust me, even when not handled often, & that trust carries over to others when I've shared them, even at the vet's office. None of my snakes have ever bit anyone else once tame with me- I'm not calling it love- more like trust- feeling safe. And it makes sense to me- in the wild, they learn their way around & learn where they are safe from predators- when they're captive pets, we're part of their environment that they learn to trust. If things change around them, they're instinctively unsettled until they learn they're still safe.

I do remember reading that snakes that are rehomed are more likely to get sick- ie. their immune system responds to stress much as ours does- stress negatively affects health. That's why anytime I get a new snake, I try to treat them like a newborn in the ICU- lots of "TLC" while they settle in, & hands off for a while. New snakes- whether shipped from a breeder or from a store or an expo- have often been thru a LOT & exposed to other diseases along the way- so you want them to remain healthy & have their immune system work as well as possible.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I agree. Not based on any official study, but just my experience of many years living with & knowing so many snakes. And seeing that they remember & trust me, even when not handled often, & that trust carries over to others when I've shared them, even at the vet's office. None of my snakes have ever bit anyone else once tame with me- I'm not calling it love- more like trust- feeling safe. And it makes sense to me- in the wild, they learn their way around & learn where they are safe from predators- when they're captive pets, we're part of their environment that they learn to trust. If things change around them, they're instinctively unsettled until they learn they're still safe.

I do remember reading that snakes that are rehomed are more likely to get sick- ie. their immune system responds to stress much as ours does- stress negatively affects health. That's why anytime I get a new snake, I try to treat them like a newborn in the ICU- lots of "TLC" while they settle in, & hands off for a while. New snakes- whether shipped from a breeder or from a store or an expo- have often been thru a LOT & exposed to other diseases along the way- so you want them to remain healthy & have their immune system work as well as possible.

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i’ve only had 1 non-arachnid/non-snake animal, which was my childhood dog, who was a female pure bred chow chow and i did research once and saw that she as an adult dog had the same cognitive and intellectual abilities of a human child aged 3-5 years old - so it’s like with that, combined with observable behavior that we know eg: how Cuban boas will hunt like velociraptors for bats in caves or how retics will construct nests or how king cobras will mark their territories and recognize the markings of other snakes - i truly think their much more “conscious” than we often think - makes me wonder how things could be if we explored that more because another thing i think about is how our behavior effects their behavior and how if we act all closed off because we assume their mindless instinct machines how that probably adversely effects the relationship between keeper and snake

i also would say per your second paragraph - that’s the real struggle - my coastal carpets are as big as pencils and I’m *dying* to start handling them and taming them but i know it’s best to wait 😩🤌

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i also would say per your second paragraph - that’s the real struggle - my coastal carpets are as big as pencils and I’m *dying* to start handling them and taming them but i know it’s best to wait 😩🤌

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How long has it been now? Sometimes you can take a cue from how "outgoing" (active) they are.

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i’ve only had 1 non-arachnid/non-snake animal, which was my childhood dog, who was a female pure bred chow chow and i did research once and saw that she as an adult dog had the same cognitive and intellectual abilities of a human child aged 3-5 years old - so it’s like with that, combined with observable behavior that we know eg: how Cuban boas will hunt like velociraptors for bats in caves or how retics will construct nests or how king cobras will mark their territories and recognize the markings of other snakes - i truly think their much more “conscious” than we often think - makes me wonder how things could be if we explored that more because another thing i think about is how our behavior effects their behavior and how if we act all closed off because we assume their mindless instinct machines how that probably adversely effects the relationship between keeper and snake

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Of course it often colors the relationship- when people assume what animals are capable of, it's very easy to miss what's really there- we're most likely to see what we expect to see- it's more of a challenge to keep an open mind. It's a bigger problem to assume what they're incapable of- and when they're referred to as "dumb animals" (as in agriculture & bred for monetary gain) then many feel that "anything goes" for treatment, use & abuse- after all, they're "only animals". I'd rather assume too much than too little.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

How long has it been now? Sometimes you can take a cue from how "outgoing" (active) they are.

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i have had them for over a month and the female has shed once and i am unsure if the male has yet because their enclosures are actually p complicated lol rn they’re extremely defensive, and will often run up to the front of the enclosure when i open then front opening window doors and will also attack the water stream when i give them water (which is honestly something i haven’t seen outside of my Feather-Leg + Togo Starburst baboon tarantulas) - so needless to say they’re über active lol

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Of course it often colors the relationship- when people assume what animals are capable of, it's very easy to miss what's really there- we're most likely to see what we expect to see- it's more of a challenge to keep an open mind. It's a bigger problem to assume what they're incapable of- and when they're referred to as "dumb animals" (as in agriculture & bred for monetary gain) then many feel that "anything goes" for treatment, use & abuse- after all, they're "only animals". I'd rather assume too much than too little.

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I know a lot of farmers and animal breeders (I show rabbits) and just wanted to clarify that most farmers and breeders do actually care about their animals. Less stress=better quality products whether it be meat, wool, eggs, milk, etc. as stress can negatively impact that and more, plus the risk of diseases spreading is higher with stressed animals. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely people who do abuse the fact that animals will survive and breed in less than ideal conditions and I have seen that, as well as poor handling at various livestock shows but the majority of people raising livestock, poultry, or rabbits for food and show are not neglecting and/or abusing them. However, I don't know enough to say that about people breeding animals like dogs, cats, goldfish, etc. since I'm mostly around livestock breeders and farmers, although I do definitely disagree with the lack of any type of mental stimulation I see in the enclosures of some "pet" breeders' enclosures.

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Originally Posted by Animallover3541

I know a lot of farmers and animal breeders (I show rabbits) and just wanted to clarify that most farmers and breeders do actually care about their animals. Less stress=better quality products whether it be meat, wool, eggs, milk, etc. as stress can negatively impact that and more, plus the risk of diseases spreading is higher with stressed animals. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely people who do abuse the fact that animals will survive and breed in less than ideal conditions and I have seen that, as well as poor handling at various livestock shows but the majority of people raising livestock, poultry, or rabbits for food and show are not neglecting and/or abusing them. However, I don't know enough to say that about people breeding animals like dogs, cats, goldfish, etc. since I'm mostly around livestock breeders and farmers, although I do definitely disagree with the lack of any type of mental stimulation I see in the enclosures of some "pet" breeders' enclosures.

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Yes, I agree- & it's really too big of a subject to generalize- I was thinking more about cattle feed lots, & puppy mill types- & even some reptile wholesalers- & the fact that many people buying just would rather not know what goes on & therefore they tacitly accept it by continuing to purchase. But yes, on the local level you mean, many DO care a great deal & provide excellent care. Part of the problem is that in such a big world with animals marketed far from where they originated, we don't always see the sources to know- & that's the problem.

this is about bees but i think it only stands to reason - if this is true of bees then what about other, more complex life forms, like snakes?

study:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...03347222002366

I feel like I should chime in because this is such a longstanding thread here!

I didn't answer the questions in the original post because neither option worked for me. The current science is absolutely clear - snakes definitely feel emotions. But love? We have no way of knowing that. Heck, we can't even know for sure if the particular combination of mental and physical responses that one person calls 'love' are really the same thing as what another person labels as 'love'. So I just don't think we have the capacity, language, or understanding of their cognitive processes to know about other species' experiences of emotion.

I can't judge keepers who believe their snakes love them; I can't judge keepers who believe their snakes don't love them (I will admit to being a little judgmental about those who claim that snakes are basically just instinct-driven tubes with no emotional responses - only because the science that claimed that is so, so outdated and disproven). But I do know that my snakes recognize me and trust me. A few of them (not all) actually seem to seek out some contact with me.

Achieving that degree of trust not only across species, but with an animal that is not domesticated, is an incredible experience. And it's enough for me.