OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Are you serious? Known to not have a potent venom?

The first link that you posted states this about B.Nasicornis "VERY TOXIC BY INTRAVENOUS AND INTRAMUSCULAR ROUTES". Fortunately not much is known about Bitis N. or B. G. because not very many people have been bitten by them, due to their calm and lazy nature. They usually only bite when stepped on or harassed. Most of their data is from mice and monkeys.

Worlds most venomous snakes

To say that a Bitis N's venom is not potent is ignorant. Sure its not as potent as say a Taipan, but it is far from being non fatal. They are more fatal than many venomous snakes, such as the Agkistrodon contortrix, or Crotalus atrox which both have a low toxicity level. The B.N. is actually in the middle, but the amount of venom is indeed also a factor, as they do inject far more than any other snake.

"Bites are relatively rare, due to their docile nature and because their range is mainly limited to rainforest areas. Due to their sluggishness and unwillingness to move even when approached, people are often bitten after they accidentally step on them, but even then in some cases they may not bite. However, when a bite does occur, it should always be considered a serious medical emergency. Even an average bite from an average-sized specimen is potentially fatal. Antivenin should be administered as soon as possible to save the victim's life if not the affected limb."

A study by Marsh and Whaler was done and found that the equivalent to 0.06 ml of venom, or 1/50 to 1/1000 of what can be obtained in a single milking. 35 mg (1/30 of the average venom yield) would be enough to kill a man of 150lbs.


As far as pictures, I wish that we did still have pictures of our Rhino's. They were very beautiful. Unfortunately that was years and a few computers ago and we no longer have any of them.

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Maybe you care to read the second document, and tell me the LD 50 value given for nasicornis? I will save you the time, 8.6mg per Kg. That is a low potency! That figure is for intramuscular envenomation, most intravenous envenomations will be near fatal/fatal.

Bitis gabonica had a intramuscular LD50 of 5.2. Much strong than that of nasicornis, yet it is accepted that it isn a potent venom. It is the amount injected that makes the three Bitis species dangerous.

I never said it was non fatal, I said it wasn't potent. As you don't seem to be able to understand the difference between the two words. A venom doesn't need to be potent to be fatal. There are many more factors involved that decide whether an envenomation will be fatal or not!

I like how you couldn't answer any of the other questions I ask. I'm surprised you don't have any pictures of snakes you have kept, seems odd.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

You obviously cannot read properly then, as I said I think my way is right and that's my opinion. So in fact I do have an opinion, for a 'proper' debate.



You're just trying to take it to the extreme.

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Well, where do you draw the line?

You seem to think that everything that you do is so perfect, so I'm assuming you'd draw the line at what you're doing. But why not make the naturalistic enclosure that much more natural and therefore better by adding a much more natural substrate?

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

As a snake keeper you should know that mites don't have to come from the substrate. When i went on holiday i took my snakes to a friends house, who keeps his snakes on paper etc - my snakes came back with mites!

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I've never heard of a mite outbreak that could be directly linked to newspaper. You got mites because your friends snakes had mites. I can almost guarantee his animals did not pick up the infestation from newspaper..

Honestly I have no problem with most of the stuff you're saying and how you keep your animals is fine and dandy by me. I dig naturalistic habitats and have personally kept several in the past for select species. How you come across could use a bit of tweaking if you desire a warmer reception and a good natured debate. The main thing that rubs me the wrong way is you expecting people to accept your method as best when you can offer no different proof than the rest of us that your animals are "happy" and healthy.

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Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

Please define in detail what a "properly executed naturalistic enclosure" is.

I am not trying to stir the pot, I am trying to help everyone define this extremely long and very poorly fought argument. (despite my two troll-ish posts)

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A properly executed naturalistic enclosure mimics, as close as possible, what the animal may encounter in the wild yet at the same time providing for any specialized husbandry requirements.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

Well, where do you draw the line?

You seem to think that everything that you do is so perfect, so I'm assuming you'd draw the line at what you're doing. But why not make the naturalistic enclosure that much more natural and therefore better by adding a much more natural substrate?

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I draw the line at doing things that are clearly impractical. For my rattlesnakes, i'm not exactly going to ship in sand from the US am i. Sand is sand at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by John1982

I've never heard of a mite outbreak that could be directly linked to newspaper. You got mites because your friends snakes had mites. I can almost guarantee his animals did not pick up the infestation from newspaper..

Honestly I have no problem with most of the stuff you're saying and how you keep your animals is fine and dandy by me. I dig naturalistic habitats and have personally kept several in the past for select species. How you come across could use a bit of tweaking if you desire a warmer reception and a good natured debate. The main thing that rubs me the wrong way is you expecting people to accept your method as best when you can offer no different proof than the rest of us that your animals are "happy" and healthy.

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I know they aren't in the news paper, but some how they've got into his collection.

If you use natural substrate its not hard to eliminate the chance of mites being present. I freeze, and then bake and micro wave all my substrate to make sure anything in there is killed.

To be honest, i couldn't care less if people accept it or not. People are set in their ways, and me coming on here without scientific backing isn't going to change that. But because there isn't evidence for it, doesn't give me reason to just provide my snakes with the basic environment does it? We shouldn't just assume because they are eating etc on paper towels they wouldn't benefit from a more interactive enclosure.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Skip;
Honest question, as I am wondering about conflicting things I've read.
I thought it was generally not a good idea to put much vertical climbing area in for bps. As being thick bodied and generally clumsy with climbing they could injure themselves (falling). Is this not the case? I would add some climbing to my display tanks if that is true. Thanks for any information!

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They are adept enough at climbing that birds make up a large percentage of their diet in the wild.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

A properly executed naturalistic enclosure mimics, as close as possible, what the animal may encounter in the wild yet at the same time providing for any specialized husbandry requirements.

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Just a small amendment, that it mimics, as close as possible, what the animal may encounter in the wild yet, at the same time, providing for any specialized husbandry requirements at exceptional and "best benefit" levels.

Balls don't encounter constant 60-70 percent humidity in the wild, while nor do they get the humidity bump just because their shedding.

The same can be said for the rattlers. It never rains in a naturalistic enclosure, but does in the wild.


Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I draw the line at doing things that are clearly impractical. For my rattlesnakes, i'm not exactly going to ship in sand from the US am i. Sand is sand at the end of the day..

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Not really. There are many types of sand. Play sand, concrete sand, reptile sand and others.

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I know they aren't in the news paper, but some how they've got into his collection.

If you use natural substrate its not hard to eliminate the chance of mites being present. I freeze, and then bake and micro wave all my substrate to make sure anything in there is killed..

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Not knowing your friend but one thing that could be the cause of getting mites is not having proper quarantine. Seeing that your snakes got them as well his snakes were not quarantined from your properly.

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To be honest, i couldn't care less if people accept it or not. People are set in their ways, and me coming on here without scientific backing isn't going to change that. But because there isn't evidence for it, doesn't give me reason to just provide my snakes with the basic environment does it? We shouldn't just assume because they are eating etc on paper towels they wouldn't benefit from a more interactive enclosure.

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Just because you have no proof doesn't mean you can't provide them with the environment that you see fit. At the same time you have no reason to say that the people that keep theirs in tubs or on paper that they have no passion or willingness to do anything.

With that being said, and I know that you don't care, but it's the way that you come across. That you are right and what everyone says is wrong is what people have a problem with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but at the same time there is no need to have to be right all the time. Having to have the last word all the time that your right is just childish and something I expect from my 8yo but not from a grown adult.

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Originally Posted by mattb

Not really. There are many types of sand. Play sand, concrete sand, reptile sand and others.



Not knowing your friend but one thing that could be the cause of getting mites is not having proper quarantine. Seeing that your snakes got them as well his snakes were not quarantined from your properly.



Just because you have no proof doesn't mean you can't provide them with the environment that you see fit. At the same time you have no reason to say that the people that keep theirs in tubs or on paper that they have no passion or willingness to do anything.

With that being said, and I know that you don't care, but it's the way that you come across. That you are right and what everyone says is wrong is what people have a problem with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but at the same time there is no need to have to be right all the time. Having to have the last word all the time that your right is just childish and something I expect from my 8yo but not from a grown adult.

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Use your initiative, what type of sand do you think i am using?

It could be that, more likely that he picked them up from else where as his reptiles are his job. So they're always clean etc.

But that is my opinion that i am right and that the others are wrong, why is so that so hard to accept? It's only opinion. And i honestly don't know how many times i have to say it, but i have nothing against tubs! If they're of adequate size etc. Maybe some of you would like to post your set ups? Would be interesting to see how many of you have tubs/racks longer than the actual adult snake?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

They are adept enough at climbing that birds make up a large percentage of their diet in the wild.

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Interesting! I will have to check out what I can find on this. As in, are they climbing and getting into nests, etc or are they ambushing on the ground. Not trying to say they aren't adept, quite the opposite. I would just be interested in learning more of their abilities and if the risk is minimal enough for the added activity. Seeing as how it wouldn't help them as it does in the wild, in obtaining prey. Unless I start hanging the rats from branches...heh that might actually be neat to see!

Thanks!