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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by AaronP
Not that I am arguing with you Adam, but what do you think PETA believes? ;)
I think that PETA is probably sending this guy and honorary membership as we speak. ;)
-adam
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
So, for people that don't have lizards or fish to feed these so-called "low value" animals too, you feel that selling them is ok?
If you don't have the heart to cull them some other way, then I guess thats the only option yeah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
You know absolutely nothing about me. I don't produce one animal more than I can place in a responsible home each season. Whatever I can get for it? Are you out of your mind? You know nothing about my business practices, what I sell, what I give away, what I donate to schools, and the values with which I live my life.
Remember, at the begining of the thread, I said that "you" refers to everyone who is debating me. i have to assume you are all, basically one person, in order to argue my pints without going on tangents. I am not attacking you personally. I have no idea who you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
You are the breeder that has so little regard for the life of an animal, you can spew off a dozens of justifications for killing and show absolutely no remorse. Your methods result in the death of a healthy animal. I see a HUGE difference.
Then this is where we differ as people you and I. i'd rather cull animals I think are most likely doomed for poor quality lives right at the start. You'd rather give them all a fighting chance. I respect that. I don't agree with it, but I respect it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I breed ball pythons because I love and respect them. Not just the hottest morphs, not just the ones that I can get the most money for, all of them. I am fortunate enough to be able to take a life long passion and make a career out of it. I'm not wealthy, but I'm happy ... I live my life, raise my children, and run my business with a respect for the blessing that is life and if for one second I thought that killing was a requirement for doing what I do for a living ... I'd stop.
OK fair enough. But don't you think, even a little bit, that at some point, producing normals is doing more harm to the hobby than good? These are the animals mostly likely to not find good permahomes.
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I donate animals to fund raisers, schools, and charities and do whatever I can to promote our hobby and the centuries old tradition of keeping animals as pets. I do it not for myself, but for the animals ... they are my passion. It's a concept that I'm certain you'll never understand.
I understand it completely, and I commend you. Do you think I have not done the same? What you are not hearing from me is that I think that doing too much of that is a bad thing. What you don't want to hear is that alot of those animals that you donate end up, eventually, in someone elses hands. You have no control over them at that point. So why freak out when you nip some of that in the bud by culling via feeding at the outset?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I think morally bankrupt would be a better description.
Be careful. This is your emotions again. You don't know anything about me other than I have a different approach to my hobby than you. That one thing about me tells you nothing other than you and I have different philosophies. Thats all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
How would you have any idea what I make? You have absolutely no idea what my business practices are. Weren't you just puffing your chest a couple pages ago about your skills as a debater? And this is how you come at me?
I don't know. Remember, "you" means the typical, sell everyting you can produce to make a buck breeder. I am not attacking you personally. And I never said I was a good debator, I just said debate me, don't insult me or dismiss me without stating a point of view. Thats why I came here, to see what a larger forum thinks about this same topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
That's only because you're either too lazy or inept to find the animals that you feel aren't worthy of your time or attention loving homes. If you feel that a good enough excuse for killing healthy animals, rock on.
Thats just mean. Again, you don't know me. Because it's snakes, you are getting emotinal and making it personal. I can assure you that culling is a last resort for any of my animals, but at the end of the day, it's the best thing for the animals, and the hobby IMHO. Do you know how hard it is to find a permahome for a ten foot, muddied up, ugly brown carpet python who'd like to eat your face? It's better for the animals to ind purpose as a feeder...just like the thousands of rats I am sure youhave fed over the years. it's no different at all save for your emotions.
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Killing is wrong.
Yet you probably feed your snakes something other than tofu right? Cmon...You can't own both sides of that arguement. You are either for it, or against it. Again, emotions. Food is food...scales or not. fi it keeps from flooding the marketplace, thats even better.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I think that PETA is probably sending this guy and honorary membership as we speak. ;)
-adam
Nah, he'd have to want to cull EVERYONE'S animals for that to be the case. This guy is....off, but PETA is down right bat crap crazy!
And to Clarify Shawn, I see where you're coming from in your OP, but I don't understand why you think everyone should agree with you. The point of a debate is to state the facts and to persuade the audience, this is more of a heated conversation because the majority of the arguments being made are fueled by personal opinions, and by definition an opinion is not a fact.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
I can see why you would want to "debate" this on a site where most don't have a clue who you are. I don't know anyone who would purchase anything from you after reading your comments in this thread.....luckily you're not in it for the money;) yeah, right.
When I have used the word "you" I mean YOU. Not the "collective" you. But just you.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
I still say if ya'll send me a snake rack, I'll take those icky normals :rofl:
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
You don't even have to send me a rack, you don't want it? I'll give you my number and wire you the money to ship it to me.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
I happen to work in a store that gets our local breeders normal balls, normal corns etc. And guess what, they get more than adequate care and we educate our customers to ensure the snake lives a healthy life. I know we aren't the only ones who do this, and the fact that the breeder sold them to us for 15 bucks is irrelevent, they're still going to perfectly deserving keepers. Of course there are some bad stores out there, but to say ALL cheap snakes are better off dead is absurd. For someone who's been around as long as you, you should at least have seen some evidence of this.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
If you don't have the heart to cull them some other way, then I guess thats the only option yeah.
I see. So lets be clear. You ARE FOR the wholesale killing of animals that don't have any perceived value in your opinion. It has nothing to do with feeders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Remember, at the begining of the thread, I said that "you" refers to everyone who is debating me. i have to assume you are all, basically one person, in order to argue my pints without going on tangents. I am not attacking you personally. I have no idea who you are.
Then don't quote my posts. Because my posts are my own and not from some ambiguous "YOU" that you prefer to address in mass. When you quote me directly, you make it very personal ... that's how forums work FYI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Then this is where we differ as people you and I. i'd rather cull animals I think are most likely doomed for poor quality lives right at the start. You'd rather give them all a fighting chance. I respect that. I don't agree with it, but I respect it.
Why do you even bother keeping animals? I mean, if you can give animals a good quality of life, why can't someone else? Do you think that highly of yourself that you believe that there aren't other people out there competent enough to provide animals with a great home? And why can't you do the work to find those people for the animals that you so easily talk about killing? Isn't busting you butt and tracking down good homes for an animal better than killing it?
You can't have it both ways ... you can't say that there are so many animals out there that we need to kill ... but then support breeding and making more animals. The sheer lack of ethics involved in that kind of logic is mind blowing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
OK fair enough. But don't you think, even a little bit, that at some point, producing normals is doing more harm to the hobby than good?
Absolutely not. 5 years ago, over 180,000 ball pythons were imported from Africa, this year that number is well below 100,000 ... I think reducing the numbers of imports through captive breeding is a good thing. If we start killing off normal ball pythons, the import numbers will go back up and animals will be killed needlessly during the import process which is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
These are the animals mostly likely to not find good permahomes.
That's your opinion. It's not true for the animals that I produce and the animals that many members of this forum produce. We work extremely hard to put our offspring in responsible homes ... and if it doesn't work out, I take them back no questions asked. The same argument you just made for "low value" animals could also be made for the animals that you choose not to cull. Sure, price makes it less likely, but if you're claim is that you can't control how an animal will be treated once you sell it, that claim would apply to ALL of the animals you produce ... so you might as well just "cull" them all.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Do you think I have not done the same?
No. Your posts have given me the impression that you put zero value on animals that you can't sell for a high value. If that's not the case, you've done a really poor job of communicating otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
What you don't want to hear is that alot of those animals that you donate end up, eventually, in someone elses hands.
Why do you assume that I'm not involved with the animals that I sell or donate after the fact? Oh, I'm sorry is this the ambiguous global "YOU" that you're speaking to again? I'm confused because you've quoted me here. If it is the global "YOU" then well, that's pretty convenient. If not, you have no idea about my interactions with my customers and people that I donate animals to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
So why freak out when you nip some of that in the bud by culling via feeding at the outset?
Because killing for the sake of killing is wrong. I'd think that a snake would rather bounce from one home to another a couple times than be dead. To me, it seems like dead is always bad and pretty darn permanent. And it's not just about feeding, lets give that part up ... you stated above that if a animal wasn't available to feed to, some other means of "culling" would be ok with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Be careful. This is your emotions again. You don't know anything about me other than I have a different approach to my hobby than you. That one thing about me tells you nothing other than you and I have different philosophies. Thats all.
Yes, it is my emotions ... the ending of a life because it has "little value" is an emotional subject to me. You're right, the only thing that I know about you is that you have no problem justifying the killing of a healthy animal. Scary isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I don't know. Remember, "you" means the typical, sell everyting you can produce to make a buck breeder. I am not attacking you personally.
But again, you did quote me. If you want to speak to the ambiguous YOU, please do it without quoting me directly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
And I never said I was a good debator
But you did claim with an obvious sense of hubris that you were better than Wes ... do I need to find the post? ... hence attempting to turn this into some type of competition. All I'm saying is that if that's your goal, you're going to have to do a lot better than making stuff up. People kind of see through that BS pretty quick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Thats why I came here, to see what a larger forum thinks about this same topic.
Did you really not know that this is the response you would get? Give me a break. You trolled this one out to what? A dozen pages now? Your agenda is painfully obvious, but nice try.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Thats just mean.
Right. And killing healthy animals is what? Wistful?
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Because it's snakes, you are getting emotinal and making it personal.
If you were talking about KILLING any animal because it wasn't worth much I'd be emotional. I'd hope that most people would. Killing is wrong.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
I can assure you that culling is a last resort for any of my animals
Now your story changes? For the last dozen pages you've been the proud "culler" saving the reptile hobby and giving animals a better existence with death ... now it's a last resort? Nice buckle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Do you know how hard it is to find a permahome for a ten foot, muddied up, ugly brown carpet python who'd like to eat your face?
I have no idea. But if you produced it, like it or not you're responsible for it's life and well being. If you can't handle that because it's "too difficult" to sell or keep ... then you should have thought about that before you paired those snakes up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Yet you probably feed your snakes something other than tofu right? Cmon...You can't own both sides of that arguement. You are either for it, or against it. Again, emotions. Food is food...scales or not. fi it keeps from flooding the marketplace, thats even better.
But it's not about food. You're flailing now ...
When I asked you directly
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
So, for people that don't have lizards or fish to feed these so-called "low value" animals too, you feel that selling them is ok?
you replied
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
If you don't have the heart to cull them some other way
and advocated killing in a way other than feeding (ie "some other way") as a perfectly acceptable option for low value snakes.
Your propensity to run back to the "feeding" schtick when you get in a jam is pretty transparent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Yet you probably feed your snakes something other than tofu right? Cmon...You can't own both sides of that arguement. You are either for it, or against it. Again, emotions. Food is food...scales or not.
If you were producing snakes for the sake of creating feeders (just like I produce rodents for the sake of being feeders) and feeding them to animals that will only eat snakes (just like my animals only eat rodents) and if you were feeding off ALL of your snakes (just like I feed off ALL of my rodents) I probably wouldn't have a problem with what you're doing. But what you are doing (not the ambiguous YOU, but you specifically) is breeding snakes for profit and killing the ones that are a pain in the rear to place into good homes, plain and simple ... and it's just wrong.
Blessings,
-adam
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltah!
I can see why you would want to "debate" this on a site where most don't have a clue who you are. I don't know anyone who would purchase anything from you after reading your comments in this thread.....luckily you're not in it for the money;) yeah, right.
When I have used the word "you" I mean YOU. Not the "collective" you. But just you.
I have purchased from Shawn, and he's a great guy! He actually cares a lot about his animals. I can guarantee he's not in it just for the money.
On the subject of culling.... well, talk to some old school herpers, and you'll see it was much more common than it is now. There are people that still do it, but don't talk about it because threads like this pop-up and they're made out to be soulless individuals.
I have mixed emotions on the subject, it can have its place. It's not like Shawn is indiscriminately killing off animals, these are integrate carpets, and when you're dealing with them and selling them the lines can get awfully muddied up. It's all too easy for someone to misrepresent such animals as "pure" species, which just further muddies up the bloodlines in the US, and with carpets, we're not getting new pure lines from Australia...
The designer carpets have their place for sure, but the problem lies when the non-visual morph siblings are produced, it's awfully hard without knowing the animals background to tell if they're a hybrid or not. That's the problem of selling them, how can you guarantee that they'll be honestly represented, or if they're sold as pet only, that they'll never be bred? You can't...that's where I understand Shawn and others' viewpoints.
I know, how is culling an animal better than taking those risks?.... but again, that's the emotional argument and not the logical argument.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
You don't want honest debate...you want to proselytize your position.
Not true, I have been open an honest with everyone, and have heard a few points of view that gave me pause. Thats why I am here. You are proselytizing yours though, by not allowing debate without accusation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
And yet you try to tell us to take feelings OUT of the equation?
Exactly. Snake people, more than any other animals type I have ever worked with, seem to get all bent out of shape when you talk about culling. Which is funny, since they kill without thought when they feed their snakes rats and mice. I understand the difference between the two, and it boils down to pure emotion. I am sure you see this also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
What makes you think ~I~, or anyone else, needs to "feel better" about you killing off your unwanted animals?
Because everytime this has come up, over the last three years, it always boils down to some people wanting other people to not cull because they think it's a despicable practice. You may not care, but many others do, and get really charged about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
ASSUMING such a fate is the destiny of all "ugly" snakes.
ASSUMING this happens to those poor "ugly" animals.
ASSUMING this many snakes are affected in this manner each year. Do you have statistical proof to back it up? Or your own personal perceptions of the world around you? The argument that it's "just logical" doesn't hold water.
These assumptions are based on Logic. It's not unrealistic to make any of the statement I have made. They are not far fetched in the least when you think it through and don't allow emotion to get in the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
ASSUMING the fact that every breeder isn't killing off all their "ugly" or "cheap" snakes is the reason our hobby is in "the state" that it is in?
This isn't an assumption, it's my belief. I can call your belief that I am wrong an assumption as well. You and I disagree on this point. I think there are too many animals being produced every year. You don't. These are not assumption, they are opposing opinions. We can agree to disagree here. I think it's a huge problem that will come back to haunt us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[everyone who produces 100+ snakes must be wholesaling them to turn a quick buck?
I could be wrong here. Seriously. But I attend shows, was just at Daytona as a matter of fact...surf the web...and I see alot of really cheap ball pythons being sold in lots. Thats not a great sign thats it's not happening alot is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[How very fascist of you. How dare one life be given a chance simply because someone else's life might be hard?
OK. We are talking about animals here, not people. This makes no sense. Do you eat chicken? How very facist of you to decide to eat that chicken, it could live a happy life elsewhere...C'mon....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[So you blame the irresponsible buyers for your inability to respect life enough to give it a chance?
You are asking me if I feel it's right to make more animals suffer prolonged abuse so that 1 may live a good life? No i don't think it is. I don't think it' unreasonable to assume that 6 out of ten animals probably die before they should due to neglect, especially when they are throw away ten dollar snakes. I don't think it's cool for those 6 to suffer, for 4 to survive. I think it more fair to just allow them a swift, clean end to their life before it begins, than to send them out into the world and hope for the best, which I think is a cop out. Again, we disagree on a point, which is cool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[ASSUMING folks who breed snakes don't already deal with the responsibility of their offspring. ASSUMING they don't kill them just because "it sucks" to do so? ((Personally, my moral compass isn't guided by "what sucks" and "what feels good"))
None of his is an assumption either. It's also my opinion. Why do you (meaning your side of the arguement) think its ethical to mass produce snakes that have a disadvantage at birth because they are less desirable, and will more than likely, at some point be kept in poor conditions that result in abandonment or death?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
No, the answer is to work a little harder to sell them to folks that actually WANT them.
Which you are assuming everyone does. Thats not the case. Most don't. thats not an assumption, it's a fact. I go to the same shows, see the same vendors, and see the same online adds. I see the same bins, filled with dozens of babies for sale to anyone with wallet. For what pupose?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
You didn't answer, you ASSUMED your perception of price vs. value is the same for everyone else as it is for you.
Again, not an assumption. The way people value things in this country, even snakes, is by putting a dollar value on it. Thats a fact, not an assumption.
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Originally Posted by JLC
If that is your point of view, then isn't it unethical for you to be breeding at all???
Probably. But I love this hobby more than I dislike culling a few animals that need to be culled.
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Originally Posted by JLC
So instead...we should act like a bunch of freaks who kill whatever doesn't live up to our personal standards? That'll endear us to the masses.
Much more so than allowing them to escape into the everglades and cause massive, worldwide critisism yes. Sorry, but it's the truth. It sucks, but it's the truth. Balls are not Burms, I get that, but shelters are full of ball Pythons...you don't think that makes us look bad when any 12 year old can go buy one with no education, no caging, no nothing? Just ten bucks and a deli cup...thats it? That makes us look terrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
ASSUMING there isn't a market for these animals.
This isn't an assumption. Normal baby male ball pythons are very, very cheap. Any cheaper, and they'd be free, which means there is no longer a market. Thats a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by JLC
[This right here seals your point of view and makes it crystal clear to anyone who hadn't already gotten it. These beautiful animals are nothing more than "an unfortunate side effect" because they're not what YOU wanted.
I challenge you to go onto youtube and watch some videos of people hatching their ball python clutches. Listen to the disappointment when they get a normal that hatches out "Aw man!" You turn this on me like I am unique?!? Ball Python people produce more spin off normals in the persuit of morphs than any other species by far. (except maybe corns) I have no problem with this persuit. I am just man enough to admit that when I do it, I create less than desirable animals as well, and I am willing to deal with them right away, rather than take the easy way out, and blast them into the market place for cheap and no longer be responsible, and make some cash to boot. I think I morally have the high ground here. You disagree. Thats cool.
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Originally Posted by JLC
[Robin is lying just because you can't believe someone would care that much.
Sigh...Assumed...I never said she was lying. I said I didn't know her well enough to make that judgement, and I commended her if it were true. Most people don't take that time. It's a huge commitment.
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Originally Posted by JLC
[You really need to get out more.
Heh. OK. Insults are nice. Emotions...Your setting yourself back...be careful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
How many seriously expensive pure bred (and even expensive non-pure breds like "puggles") dogs end up in shelters and rescues? TONS.
Not many. Way more mutts or extremely common breds (hey like normal ball pythons!)than pure animals in shelters. And even some pure animals are so heavily bred that they are worse than mutts. How many $50 pit bulls ads can i find today in the paper....
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Originally Posted by JLC
How many "free" rescued dogs live beautiful, happy lives? Most.
This is a Lie, or at the very least, a regional difference. Call any Shelter in this area, and they euthanize far more animals than are sucessfully adopted out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
You're ASSUMING that "many" folks value life as little as they value dollars.
Again..not an assumption. The value of a life has everything to do with what you will pay for it. If I told you I had a turtle, and unless you paid me a $1000 ransom, I'd kill it...would you pay me $1000? No way...I guess you don't value a life at $1000...how about $100? $10? $1? You'd feel really bad if I killed it, but you don't really value it that much do you? These are animals, not people. Your are letting emotions affect your thought process again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
You can protest all you want, but you DID call Robin a liar. Maybe you've flipped around based on testimony that followed her statement, but you made it crystal clear that you did NOT believe her when she first posted.
Read the post. I said, "I don't know you well enough to call you a liar" that pretty much means I can't call her a Liar. I didn't flip one bit. My post has sat unchanged since I wrote it. You just don't like that I pointed out that her position was a very unique one. Most folks don't do what she does. Please read WHAT I write, not INTO what I write.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
That's the problem...you're ASSUMING that emotions should not be involved in the argument (even though you stated at the very beginning that they must inevitably be so) Electronics are NOT the same as animals and the analogy falls flat, at the very least.
Thats my points exactly. This topic gets so nuts because people bring unrealistic emotions. Most of you eat meat. You feed animals to other animals already, but once you talk about killing baby snakes, you freak out. Thats emotion. From outside the box, it's no different what you feed to what, or why.
As far as electronics being different, they are not at all if you take that emotion out of the equation. You already assign a dollar value to living things. I just proved that to you above. Remember the ransomed turtle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
Most of the folks here are truly passionate about the animals they care for...whether it is one, a handful, or hundreds. Passion and emotion cannot be separated. So, you're ASSUMING that folks are simply not buying your point of view (our judgment being affected) only because we're "too emotional".
Thats a crock of hoey. Oh I am sure there are some folks here who have real, emotional attachments to their animals in smaller numbers. But I dont' believe that the guys with hundreds of breeder animals "love them each in there special way" C'mon with that. You love them because you like working with them...and they make you some money. Lets be honest here. you insinuate that I am not passionate? I am just as deeply interested in the propogation of the species that I work with as you are. We just disagree on how to handle the offspring we both produce that are the spin offs of our breeding projects. I think it's better to cull some, you thinkit's best to sell them all. thats it. Thats what this whole arguement is about. Other than that, we are the same.
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Originally Posted by JLC
The reason they don't (and WON'T) make sense is because LIFE has VALUE. A point YOU fail to grasp no matter how many times others have reiterated it.
Like the Turtle? You fail to grasp that you are a hypocrit. Chickens have value. So do cows. Fish have value. So do Deer, and Pigs...Do you eat any of those things? Rats and Mice have value. Buts thats OK right, because they are dying for a purpose. Well in the current common model of python reproduction, we take animals and breed them with no natural choice of mates (because it benefits us), we then set up optimal incubation setups, and assist hatch all the eggs so none die in the eggs (because it benefits us). Then, we take each animal, if it's really naturally fit or not (we dont really know, because we artificailly manipulated the whole process) and sell them (because we value their lives, but really because it benefit us). Read that a couple of times and let me know if the sarcasm isn't getting through. Please, please please be honest with yourself and get off your soap box.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
Just go back and see how you defined "big breeder" earlier in the discussion. And how you described yourself.
Again, I was always taught to try and be humble. I breed a bunch of snakes out of my garage. I wouldn't call myself a big breeder..but I probably should be considered one yes.
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Originally Posted by JLC
HALF?? HERE?? Show me who agrees with you. While some may have agreed on the principle that under the right circumstances snakes are as much a viable feeder-animal as others.....I dare say that is FAR from agreeing with anything you are saying here.
Go look. I have not said anything other than one thing, over andover. It's OK to cull your animals. It's ethically not any different than feeding your snakes feeder rodents. I gave you the resons why I cull, but thats not the point. The point is that ethically, it's a completely ethical practice as compared to everything else we do as hobbiests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
No...he said he'd rather lose a $300 phone than to lose a $20 ball python. Because LIFE is far more valuable than any electronic trinket, no matter how pricey.
Unless it's a turtle?
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Originally Posted by JLC
WHO are these "tons" of people? And if no one ever talks about it, how can you ASSUME so many of us must be thinking it?
Like I said. I am not new to the hobby. I have had this discussion on the internet, and in person over the years with many different people. The breakdown is always about the same. This place hasn't been any different, though thee have been some good points made. I'd link you to some of the threads from years ago, but I am not sure that allowed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
ASSUMING your method is truly what is "best" for the hobby.
I think that it is (Opinion, not assumption). Thats why I brought it here. When you look at keeping numbers of less desirable animals down, I think thats a good thing. I wish I could continue to work on my projects without creating these animals, I really do. But since i can't, I think dealing with them right away is a good, long term solution, even if it's not the most fun.
S~
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