My "theory"

Firstly, in terms of ways to dispatch prey, carbon dioxide is by far the most humane method. In a study done at Standford University, an analysis of the chemicals present in the brains of rodents after euthanization by carbon dioxide were absent of the chemical indicators of stress.

Now, I think a large part of the f/t vs live debate has to do with the number of ball pythons each of us has. There are pros and cons to each. However, the cons of feeding f/t and p/k become greatly magnified as the number of ball pythons in one's collection increases. Namely, the amount of time consumed. For someone with a small collection, the benefit of the reduced risk, minimal as it is, may outweight the cost. However, when feeding a large collection, the costs of feeding dead are significantly higher, with the cost outweighing the benefit.

In my own collection, I started off with a single ball python not too many months ago. Thawing out a single mouse or rat was quite simple, and I was happy to be avoiding whatever risk might have been involved. However, as my collection grew quite quickly (for a while I had 13 ball pythons, now down 2 to 11 after selling the hatchling males I received included with my pastel), and feeding frozen/thawed became much more difficult. After experiencing several split stomachs, and the smell of rotting flesh in the morning (even feeding very late at night, it begins to stink to high heaven by the next morning), frozen/thawed quickly lost its appeal. Discovering that most of the well-known breeders in Canada (including one I befriended) feed exclusively live, in addition to my history of feeding live to colubrids several years ago, I began to reasses the risk of feeding live. I have now come to the same conclusion that Adam has; feeding live saves a LOT of time, and is SAFE when done properly. And this is just with my collection of 11 ball pythons; if I had as many as Adam I'd probably even feel stronger about the advantages of feeding live.

Anyway, the main point I wanted to contribute was cost/benefit. In small collections, benefit > cost. In large collections, cost > benefit. The reason we see so much disagreement is that keeping ball pythons as pets is a much different experience than keeping them for the purposes of breeding. Neither is right or wrong; you should just be using whichever method best suits your needs.

Good points, hhw. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Adam, I was wondering if you have owned / cared for any other species of snake?
thanks
Rusty

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Originally Posted by Marla

I have no idea if there may have been another condition involved, but if there was, she resolved it on her own and without discernable symptoms -- in fact, a bad strike or two and a nose rub scar (when she came to me) are the only troubles I've ever seen from her, unless you count the recent bite that was my fault. It was her third feeding with me (quick strikes each time, eager to eat), and took place in a bathtub as she was on loose substrate at that time. I was not in any way between her and her target, but kneeling a bit back from the tub so as to keep out of her line of sight and make clear the heat signature she needed to follow (easy enough in a tub). The door was shut, and there were no other humans or pets in the room. I don't know why she had bad aim, but this was not a sickly snake or on meds, a defensive strike, a snake returning from fasting, or any other obvious possible cause.

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I have a couple of thoughts about your statement above.

1. Sounds like the animal that was bitten was a recent aquisition. A snake that has recently changed homes can remain stressed for a while. (Especially if it came in with a nose rub scar indicating that it's previous owner may not have been top notch when it comes to care). We all know that stressed ball pythons may not be the best feeders to begin with, but I would also contend that a stressed ball python is more likely to mis-strike a rodent or coil improperly if it does eat.

2. Personally I wouldn't feed a ball python in a bathtub. The cold surface coupled with the difficulty of the snakes ventral scales to get a good grip (i'm not even going to ask about the "loose substrate" thing :D ) would certainly make me uncomfortable and stressed if I were a ball python. Also, taking this snake out of the security of it's home and placing it into a large cold cavernous (to a ball python) area with a rodent was certainly not the optimal conditions for feeding. The stress of this situation could very well be the cause of the accident. Under more optimal conditions for your ball python, this may not have occured.

Ball pythons need and love security ... A nice warm dark place that touches them on all sides. If you take them out of that and throw them in the exact opposite, I would imagine that they are not at their best.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I used to feed live mice to Ashes (who was then known as Octavia, before I knew he was male.) He ate that way for a few months, until a mouse bit his neck, about an inch behind his head, while he was in prestrike position.

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Were you feeding in a seperate enclosure? Did your ball python have a hide from which to ambush the rodent from? What's the story with the mouse? Had it been offered to another snake before or gone without food for some time?

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Bela always grabs her prekilled prey headfirst, with the rat's nose going into her mouth. Even if that rat were merely stunned and not fully dead, I think it'd instinctively try to bite whatever was in its mouth's grasp.

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Pre-killed animals begin to dissapate heat from the moment they are put down. A PK'd animal has a signifigantly different heat signature than a live animal (ball pythons target their strikes by heat). It is quite common to see off targets (heads, rear-ends, thighs) with PK and FT animals because their heat signatures are nothing like what a ball python is instinctually ingrained to target.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I don't know, to each their own I guess. I just know what works for me. I just know that rat and mouse bties hurt a LOT, and I do not want even a ghost of a chance of my snake having to endure that. Too much can go wrong in a millisecond!

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You mean they hurt you a LOT right? Do you know or are you willing to speculate about the nerve endings and pain sensitivity of a ball python? Do you really believe that it's the same as a human beings? It has been proven in hundreds of lower order species that their nerve receptors and pain sensitivity is nowhere near that of a human. I don't know of a specific study done on ball pythons, but personally, I would have to believe that ball pythons are developmentally the same with other lower order species in this regard.

-adam

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You mean they hurt you a LOT right? Do you know or are you willing to speculate about the nerve endings and pain sensitivity of a ball python? Do you really believe that it's the same as a human beings? It has been proven in hundreds of lower order species that their nerve receptors and pain sensitivity is nowhere near that of a human. I don't know of a specific study done on ball pythons, but personally, I would have to believe that ball pythons are developmentally the same with other lower order species in this regard.

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I think what Gin was implying is that she wouldn't want to take the chance (Not to put words in her mouth at all). But I bet if you pinched your bp, it would pull away
Rusty

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Originally Posted by hhw

Now, I think a large part of the f/t vs live debate

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Why is everyone trying to make this a FT & PK vs. live debate? I have ZERO problems with people that feed FT & PK. I think that is awesome if you do and respect anyone that takes great care of their animals no matter how they feed them. I encourage people to feed FT, PK, and LIVE and have NO PROBLEMS with any of those choices.

What I am disputing is the myth that feeding live is not safe.

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Originally Posted by hhw

the smell of rotting flesh in the morning (even feeding very late at night, it begins to stink to high heaven by the next morning)

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One of my points exactly. FT & PK eaters are generally not as consistent feeders as LIVE eaters. If you have a ball python that eats FT or PK 52 weeks a year, GREAT! But that is really the exception and the result of outstanding husbandry, a fantastic ball python, and an excellent routine. Those aren't three planets that align too often.

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Originally Posted by hhw

Discovering that most of the well-known breeders in Canada (including one I befriended) feed exclusively live

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Not just in Canada my friends. The big guys feed live not only because it's fast, but because it's effecient and there are far less missed meals.

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Originally Posted by hhw

if I had as many as Adam I'd probably even feel stronger about the advantages of feeding live.

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The strength of my convictions has nothing to do with the size of my collection. It has to do with my experience. I've been keeping ball pythons for 25 years. I have been keeping them in huge numbers for the last 10. I know this animal VERY WELL and I know that feeding them live is safe.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

Adam, I was wondering if you have owned / cared for any other species of snake?
thanks
Rusty

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Not currently, for a good number of years now it's been all p. regius. They are my original and one true love. But in the last 25 years I have kept and bred; chondros, carpets, childrens, spotteds, savus, macklotts, bloods, kings, corns, milks, hognose, and boas. (a bunch of other species that I've owned and never bred).

I've also done rescue work, volunteered at reptile shops, and assisted in many reptile related surgeries (one of my closests friends is a DVM) which puts my hands on just about everything at one point and time.

I don't do hots and I am terrified of bugs!! ... LOL ... :lol:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

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You mean they hurt you a LOT right? Do you know or are you willing to speculate about the nerve endings and pain sensitivity of a ball python? Do you really believe that it's the same as a human beings? It has been proven in hundreds of lower order species that their nerve receptors and pain sensitivity is nowhere near that of a human. I don't know of a specific study done on ball pythons, but personally, I would have to believe that ball pythons are developmentally the same with other lower order species in this regard.

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I think what Gin was implying is that she wouldn't want to take the chance (Not to put words in her mouth at all). But I bet if you pinched your bp, it would pull away
Rusty

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It sure would pull away, but that would be a flight reflex, not necessarily a reaction to pain. If I touched some of my ball pythons with a pencil eraser they would pull away too.

There is no way to measure how much "pain" that pinch would cause and the modern scientific belief is that it is definitely not as much as in humans.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Why is everyone trying to make this a FT & PK vs. live debate? I have ZERO problems with people that feed FT & PK. I think that is awesome if you do and respect anyone that takes great care of their animals no matter how they feed them. I encourage people to feed FT, PK, and LIVE and have NO PROBLEMS with any of those choices.

What I am disputing is the myth that feeding live is not safe.

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I realize that's the focus of your argument, but when discussing feeding live, it's impossible to escape the alternative methods as this would otherwise be an uncontrollable factor and no longer a particularly relevant discussion.. unless you were debating whether or not to keep ball pythons at all.

I agree that there's no point in try to argue the superiority of one method over another; they each have their pros and cons and it's up to the individual keeper to weigh those aspects for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The strength of my convictions has nothing to do with the size of my collection. It has to do with my experience. I've been keeping ball pythons for 25 years. I have been keeping them in huge numbers for the last 10. I know this animal VERY WELL and I know that feeding them live is safe.

-adam

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I wasn't so much referring to the strength of your convictions, but more to the realization of the costs and benefits of feeding live. Quite simply put, the more animals you have, the more advantageous it is to feed live. It's a lot more difficult to point out the amount of time saved to someone who's only ever had to feed a single snake.

As has already been discussed, it is SAFER to feed dead properly than to feed live properly. Now, I would agree with you that the difference is quite minute, yet it still exists. For that reason, whether or not it's worth your while to take advantage of this difference is highly dependent on the number of animals you keep.

You used the analogy of driving a car earlier; let's just say live is a regular car, and feeding dead is an armoured car that can only go up to a maximum of 30mph, where the only differences is the improved safety and slower speed, with all else being equal. Now, if you only need to drive 10 blocks to and from work each day where the speed limit is 35mph, it's probably worth it to drive that armoured car. However, if you need to drive 100miles to work when the speed limit's 100mph, it no longer makes sense to drive the armoured car.

Now, if you prefer to drive that 10 blocks at 35mph in the regular car, that's okay too. However, for a lot of people, that increased speed may not be worth it, and that's the boat most of the people who only keep ball pythons as pets are in.