Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

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Originally Posted by Missy King

Not only can that be proven by the fact that my snakes just aren't sick, but freezing DOES kill bacteria that would make them sick. Fact.

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That is only a fact if you are freezing at proper temperatures, and your average home freezer does not achieve those temperatures. And your insistence that thawing and refreezing can be done as often as one would like is highly misguided...hypothetically speaking, I suppose it can be done, but there is such a microscopic margin for error when it comes to time and temperature, that refreezing safely in one's own home is almost impossible. Sorry for the tangent, but I've been working with food long enough to know that misguided assumptions lead to horrendously poor food handling and potentially sick people(or animals).

Anyway, I feed live for a few reasons. It's convenient, rather inexpensive as I breed my own feeders- with no waste, as I wouldn't refreeze thawed/warmed up rats, and I truly believe that the freshest food item is the healthiest. I give my snakes 10 minutes to feed, if they don't eat, they wait until next week.

This thread is going in so many different directions I don't even know what to say.

First, my snake doesn't eat fruits or vegetables.

Second, my snake has never been fishing.

Third, I have no idea if he has taste buds. I don't see why he couldn't. But I always thought that snakes used their tongues to smell using their Jacobson's organ. Pretty sure that's what it's called.

Fourth, as it's been said, just throwing a mouse into any freezer doesn't necessarily kill all the bacteria found on it. I'd prefer once-cooked meat as opposed to cooked, frozen, then cooked again. But then again, we never cook the mouse, we just heat it up to thaw it.

And finally, on the main topic of this thread, my snake eats F/T. He's my only snake, so it's easier to buy a box of frozen rodents once a month instead of going a bit farther weekly to buy live. I don't even know what the going rate is for feeders at my local exotic pets store.
However, when my collection expands (if it ever does) I'll more than likely breed my own rats. When I just have a few, I'll order them in bulk. Once I exceed 10 or so I'll likely start the breeding.
So I could go either way. Keep a close eye on live feedings, and you'll generally be fine. You can stop anything before it gets too bad. I'm not sure if snakes "enjoy" hunting, if they get any kind of rush from it, or if it's better/worse for them. What's been said about thiamine being lost from freezing makes sense, but it doesn't seem to have much of a negative impact on the snakes.
The part I hate most about live feedings is the sound of a dying animal. I cringe a little whenever I hear a rat being fed to a snake. But hey, circle of life, amirite?

:popcorn: Now I'll sit back and enjoy watching. This is almost like reading a thread of Xbox 360 or PS3 haha.

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Originally Posted by SpencerShanks

I'd prefer once-cooked meat as opposed to cooked, frozen, then cooked again.

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Meat loaf...it's a scientific fact that it's better the second time around. :D

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Originally Posted by sho220

Meat loaf...it's a scientific fact that it's better the second time around. :D

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This is true :P meat loat sandwhich. haha

No, freezing does NOT kill bacteria. I can't imagine where folks got the idea that it does. Freezing simply puts bacteria into hibernation, and they stop growing and reproducing...well, most bacteria stop. Not all. There is a REASON why you can't keep meat in your freezer forever, and safely eat it. For your home freezer, after 6 months, it's time to throw it away.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/128887818.html
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../mole00219.htm
http://www.eatingwell.com/healthy_co...g_foods?page=4

Every time you warm up a rodent, the bacteria in it begin to multiply. Since you can only safely leave raw meat for 3 hours before it's dangerous, that time rapidly adds up. You don't know exactly how long the rodent was out before it was frozen the first time, and if it takes a half hour to thaw, and you leave it with the snake for an hour...then you've used up all your safe time in just 2 attempts.
The rodents we feed have all of their gut contents intact. 60% of feces is comprised of bacteria, by dry weight (hows that for a disturbing fact?) The gut of a dead animal is a virulent mass of bacteria, no longer held in check by digestive enzymes and immune system functions.
While snakes no doubt have more resistance to harmful bacteria than we do, that doesn't mean that the bacteria in dead animals can't possibly make them sick. It's in their best interests for us not to take such chances.

Tricks to win over a stubborn live-only eater:

First, feed live, but with the cage/drawer open, and you present. If you can get your snake used to that, then move on to the next step.
Offer a stunned rodent on forceps. If that is accepted...then on to the next step.
Offer a freshly pre-killed rodent on forceps.
Stick to that routine for several weeks, and make sure the snake is well used to it.
Heat an FT rodent until it is hot to the touch (not burning, but hot). Rub the rodent in soiled bedding from live rodents--they usually pee in one corner. This is gross, but get that FT rodent completely scented with the pee from the live ones.
Offer this to your snake, promptly, while it is still hot.

9 times out of 10 (or better), this will be accepted. There's always that one snake once in a while that will give you a really dirty look, and turn away, but most will be fooled. Once they've taken FT this way a few times, you can offer it unscented, and they'll scarf it right down.

I know this kills my comparison, but if you ask me everything is better reheated haha. Especially thanksgiving dinner.

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Originally Posted by SpencerShanks

I know this kills my comparison, but if you ask me everything is better reheated haha. Especially thanksgiving dinner.

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Everything cooked that is ;)

watch the snake eat to be sure it isnt bitten. if the rat does try to bite u can just block the rats teeth. or stun the rat...prekilled . whatever. very simple. that is why u tame your snake.

I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

And I also feed live rats to my ferrets. It is 120% more healthy for them than eating commercial food (even the high quality brands). Feeding live provides enrichment and exercise for my ferrets when they hunt and take down rats.

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:rolleyes:

Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?

Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets. Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.

I've seen people on YT put mice in bathtubs, call that "hunting" while they're either giggling about it in the background, putting rock music in the background, calling it an "epic battle" etc. IMO, most people feed live to ferrets just to watch their animal kill something. It's a power thing.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I feed only live and have no inclination to feed f/t, I've converted numerous f/t feeders to live :D

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This is exactly the reason why snake owners get a bad rap, because of idiots like you. Why would you want to: a) put your snake at unnecessary risk and b) put the feeder animal through unnecessary suffering? Sounds like a sicko to me.

I guess you're one of those people who see feeder animals as objects, and not living, breathing, feeling creatures. They can feel pain too you know. That's why we have a moral responsibility to minimise suffering where possible. After all, it is giving up its life for your snake... at least be decent about it.