» Site Navigation
0 members and 811 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 47,180, 07-16-2025 at 05:30 PM.
» Today's Birthdays
» Stats
Members: 76,079
Threads: 249,221
Posts: 2,572,814
Top Poster: JLC (31,651)
|
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Do you think you are making yourself look good? I blew you away in our debate, and now all you do is insult me. Wow...you have a ton of character. not much has changed since the BOI way back when though I guess. Same dude...same debating logic...same response when he loses.
S~
This "Debate" isn't about winning or losing, no one goes home with a blue ribbon at the eventual end of this thread. And you didn't "Blow" anyone away, you have a different opinion that varies greatly from Wes's. I fail to see, with all the logic that my pea sized brain can conjure, how that qualifies as "Blowing" away his.
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Neither. I said long ago, and have continued to say, that I don't like to cull, and I only feel good about it when I use them as feeders for my lizards or my arrowanna. At least that way I feel they have a purpose, and it's not useless death. The reasons that I cull, are the reasons that you just listed. they are completely related, and don't contradict at all.
So, for people that don't have lizards or fish to feed these so-called "low value" animals too, you feel that selling them is ok?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
So are you. You are the puppy mill that chooses not to cull, and sell everything they proudce for whatever they can get for it. I am the breeder who sells only what he thinks should be sold. See the difference? My method keeps animals out of shelters...that was my point sir.
You know absolutely nothing about me. I don't produce one animal more than I can place in a responsible home each season. Whatever I can get for it? Are you out of your mind? You know nothing about my business practices, what I sell, what I give away, what I donate to schools, and the values with which I live my life.
You are the breeder that has so little regard for the life of an animal, you can spew off a dozens of justifications for killing and show absolutely no remorse. Your methods result in the death of a healthy animal. I see a HUGE difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Don't be foolish. Why do you breed your animals? I suspect for the same reasons I do. Mostly, it's a ton of fun. The difference is I cull, and you don't. Thats it. I don't enjoy it. I just think it's better for the hobby. thats all this is about.
I breed ball pythons because I love and respect them. Not just the hottest morphs, not just the ones that I can get the most money for, all of them. I am fortunate enough to be able to take a life long passion and make a career out of it. I'm not wealthy, but I'm happy ... I live my life, raise my children, and run my business with a respect for the blessing that is life and if for one second I thought that killing was a requirement for doing what I do for a living ... I'd stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Are you trying to make me look bad
Nope, you're doing a great job of that all by yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
In your model, they have two purposes. to make you a quick ten bucks, and to, in most cases, live a subpar existance and maybe even be killed through neglect or euthanized at a shelter after years of neglect.
How dare you. Who do you think you are to lay those claims on me? A quick ten bucks? Are you out of your friggen mind? You don't know anything about me let alone how I sell my animals. I've never sold any animal for a "quick" any amount of money and I work extremely hard to make sure every animal I sell goes to a great home with a responsible owner. I offer all of my customers the opportunity to return the animal to me if they can no longer care for it. I donate animals to fund raisers, schools, and charities and do whatever I can to promote our hobby and the centuries old tradition of keeping animals as pets. I do it not for myself, but for the animals ... they are my passion. It's a concept that I'm certain you'll never understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Man....I am evil.
I think morally bankrupt would be a better description.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
You are.
No, I am not. You are just making things up at this point. It's pathetic really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
All things being equal, you make more money than I do in that situation.
How would you have any idea what I make? You have absolutely no idea what my business practices are. Weren't you just puffing your chest a couple pages ago about your skills as a debater? And this is how you come at me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I do HAVE to cull if I want to keep breeding
That's only because you're either too lazy or inept to find the animals that you feel aren't worthy of your time or attention loving homes. If you feel that a good enough excuse for killing healthy animals, rock on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
The difference is...I think selling the less valueable ones hurt the hobby...you dont' care, and make your money.
Killing is wrong. People like yourself that have no value for the life of animals that we should be bending over backwards to protect and care for hurt our hobby. People who can look at an animal in terms of its "value" and decide that it's not worth doing everything in their power to find and guarantee that that animal has a good home hurt our hobby. People like YOU hurt our hobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Thats not true.
Yes, it is true. I've worked with PIJAC on their re-homing program and USARK is actively working on a new campaign for re-homing as well. Check your facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Thats sounds great an all, but most of those places that do take them are not no kill shelters.
Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about? Show me one reptile rescue that is putting animals that they take in down. I speak with rescues all over the country week in and week out and they are all happy to take in animals and provide them with forever homes either in their own facility or through screened people that contact them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
most of the no kill shelters are over run, and continue to be over run, byt people who dont' have the heart to cull their own stock before they "blow it out" for an easy sale.
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about and you're just making stuff up at this point. Almost all reptile rescues are not overrun ... they're short of resources for sure and could really use a lot more donations, but they're making it work with what they have.
In closing, since you're SO concerned about this hobby, have you taken the time to join USARK and PIJAC yet? If you did great, if not I promise you that it's going to be more helpful than killing animals.
Blessings,
-adam
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
...anyone who advocates creating tons of animals with no regard to where they will go and who will end up with them is in fact the evil doer.
I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. This is why most of us here create animals with the intention of trying to find good homes for the ones that will not or may not sell well. When you keep pushing this argument, you infer that all of us here create "tons of animals with no regard to where they will go."
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinderbird
Except that there are a lot of breeders who are trying to change that. Rabernet has given you concrete examples,and I know for a fact that Adam is there LONG after the sale of his animals and that he takes calls from people who have never purchased anything from him just so he can help. There are a lot of other people who share the same views of the two aforementioned people.
I know. And I have enjoyed talking with those folks. Like I said, there are always exceptions. Look, if you are the kind of person who is really good at placing all of your animals, even the ones that are not that easy to place, more power to you. All I am saying is that if you are not that kindof person, and it's not about just making a quick buck for you, culling is an option thats way better than dumping them for cheap, and hoping they do OK. The stigma that surrounds culling is illogical, and purely an emotional response because we like snakes.
S~
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Let me first explain that I am not trying to start any fights, but I am trying to get some open, and honest debate going on a topic that I feel is long overdue in our Hobby.
You don't want honest debate...you want to proselytize your position.
Quote:
"I love this debate, because it's all about feelings.
And yet you try to tell us to take feelings OUT of the equation?
Quote:
This is a hobby that I enjoy, and I won't jeapordize my hobby to make you guys feel better about killing off unwanted animals (which is good for the hobby).
What makes you think ~I~, or anyone else, needs to "feel better" about you killing off your unwanted animals?
Quote:
I would take it one further and argue that, I am doing ugly snakes a service by ending their lives quickly rather than letting them changes hands from owner to owner dozens of times, until eventually they die from abuse or worse, they escape or are let loose
ASSUMING such a fate is the destiny of all "ugly" snakes.
Quote:
This is what happens to the majority of ugly, unwanted animals, including snakes.
ASSUMING this happens to those poor "ugly" animals.
Quote:
...you send tens of thousands of them (unwanted) off each year, to die much more prolonged deaths,
ASSUMING this many snakes are affected in this manner each year. Do you have statistical proof to back it up? Or your own personal perceptions of the world around you? The argument that it's "just logical" doesn't hold water.
Quote:
but is the reason the hobby is in the state that it's in.
ASSUMING the fact that every breeder isn't killing off all their "ugly" or "cheap" snakes is the reason our hobby is in "the state" that it is in?
Quote:
You guys want to see all of the designer stuff ,and you want to work on all the projects for double, triple, even quadruple mutations..
ASSUMING that is all we're interested in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
So when you produce 100 (i don't know if you do or not, its a rhetorical question) normal Ball pythons, and you wholsale them for $10 each to a jobber,
ASSUMING everyone who produces 100+ snakes must be wholesaling them to turn a quick buck?
Quote:
Why not? I am nto freezing them or chopping their heads off. I am choosing to use them as feeders to care for my other animals.
Your methods are not in question at this point...it's your motivation.
Quote:
There are exceptions to every rule...but you have to look at this from the majority point of view.
How very fascist of you. How dare one life be given a chance simply because someone else's life might be hard?
Quote:
Why then are you not willing to take the next responsbile step, both for the animals and the hobby, and figure out a reasonalble way to deal with the offspring...both desirable, and undesirable?
ASSUMING the person in question isn't being responsible simply because they don't choose YOUR method of "dealing with undesirable" offspring???
Quote:
Is ti really a good idea, good for the animals, and good for our hobby to send out tens if not hundreds of thousands of cheap, ugly snakes into a marketplace full of impulse buyers?
So you blame the irresponsible buyers for your inability to respect life enough to give it a chance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
If you want to breed snakes, you are going to have to deal responsibly with ALL of the offspring...not just the ones that sell well. Dumping them into the marketplace I think is bad from every angle. It just sucks to cull them, so we don't do it...but I think we should.
S~
ASSUMING folks who breed snakes don't already deal with the responsibility of their offspring. ASSUMING they don't kill them just because "it sucks" to do so? ((Personally, my moral compass isn't guided by "what sucks" and "what feels good"))
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
No not at all. I am saying don't beat me up when I am doing what I think is better for the animals and the hobby. A debate means you guys argue your points, and I argue mine. I am supposed to try to convince you...that my job as the debator.
Not doing a very good job of it, but I'm gonna ASSUME that you think you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I guess my response to this would be that I have seen my animals in other peoples care, and the ones that I am most unhappy about, are always the ones that they value the least ie normals or non-pet snakes.
So what are you doing selling snakes to folks that don't want them in the first place?
Quote:
So unhappy that I feel badly for having sold them in the first place.
I thought emotion wasn't supposed to be involved in this?
Quote:
The answer to this would be to keep them all, but thats unreasonable, as I can't do that.
No, the answer is to work a little harder to sell them to folks that actually WANT them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I did answer it. Price is an excellent indicator of perceived value. Thats your answer. When you can't sell a snake for $30...that should tell you something...especially if you have 100 of them.
You didn't answer, you ASSUMED your perception of price vs. value is the same for everyone else as it is for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
And for most of us as breeders, the work part comes when we take all of our undesirable animals and wholesale them in a lot to jobber for a tidy profit correct? Thats what most...not all..but most of us do with them.
ASSUMING you know what everyone else is doing...and that they must be doing the same thing you are.
Quote:
Doesn't that make us alot like a puppy mill? We are the guys who are providing tons of new animals each year, when there are already more out there than thier needs to be. Thats kinda my point.
If that is your point of view, then isn't it unethical for you to be breeding at all???
Quote:
You are making it sound like we are all this noble group who makes sure our less than valuable animals find great homes...but thats not what we do.
ASSUMING "we" do things the way you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Mostlarge scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims.
Just remember this one... :rolleyes:
Quote:
This is also why they do not comment on this thread...they have an image to uphold or it hurts sales. Thats the facts.
ASSUMING their silence is endorsement of your argument. That's a rich one.
Quote:
I am one of those guys, I am just not afraid to tell the truth.
Just remember this one, too...
Quote:
It's patently foolish for us to act like a bunch of saints while the Govt. is trying to take our rights away as keepers and breeders
So instead...we should act like a bunch of freaks who kill whatever doesn't live up to our personal standards? That'll endear us to the masses.
Quote:
I am talking about the guys who create hundreds or thousands of animals that their just isn't a market for.
ASSUMING there isn't a market for these animals.
Quote:
They dont' do this on purpose...it's an unfortunate side effect of producing the animals we are trying to make...morph crosses etc.
This right here seals your point of view and makes it crystal clear to anyone who hadn't already gotten it. These beautiful animals are nothing more than "an unfortunate side effect" because they're not what YOU wanted.
Quote:
I got a very similar reaction on my own forum, and I though it might be fun to discuss it on a larger venue, and see what everyone else thinks. Thank you all again BTW for making this a positive experience.
Glad we could provide you your evening's entertainment. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true.
ASSUMING Robin is lying just because you can't believe someone would care that much.
Quote:
Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar,
And yet, you did.
Quote:
but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.
You really need to get out more.
Quote:
And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.
That's not a POINT...that's YOUR ASSUMPTION.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Of course you can. It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care.
How many seriously expensive pure bred (and even expensive non-pure breds like "puggles") dogs end up in shelters and rescues? TONS. How many "free" rescued dogs live beautiful, happy lives? Most. By your logic, ALL mutts should be put down before they even have a chance to find a good home, but those pure bred, expensive ones got it made in the shade.
Quote:
There are no absolutes means that there are always exceptions...but a minority of exceptions does not negate the rule.
There is no "rule" here...just your ASSUMPTIONS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Start naming the assumptions,
They're bolded. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator? If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most? For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go".
You're ASSUMING that "many" folks value life as little as they value dollars.
Quote:
Why not curb that flow of animals a little? Whats the harm? It makes you feel bad?
What's the harm in killing for convenience???? Seriously???
Quote:
I am not a proponent of culling to better the breed. I never have been.
What's the difference???
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I make assumptions regarding mankind, not anyone here. Most of the folks here are like me,...
You just seriously contradicted yourself in this one quote alone. I can promise you that "most folks" HERE are NOT like you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I never said you were liars. Not once.
You can protest all you want, but you DID call Robin a liar. Maybe you've flipped around based on testimony that followed her statement, but you made it crystal clear that you did NOT believe her when she first posted.
Quote:
I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did. I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position.
That's the problem...you're ASSUMING that emotions should not be involved in the argument (even though you stated at the very beginning that they must inevitably be so) Electronics are NOT the same as animals and the analogy falls flat, at the very least.
Quote:
You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement.
Most of the folks here are truly passionate about the animals they care for...whether it is one, a handful, or hundreds. Passion and emotion cannot be separated. So, you're ASSUMING that folks are simply not buying your point of view (our judgment being affected) only because we're "too emotional".
Quote:
... and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people.
The reason they don't (and WON'T) make sense is because LIFE has VALUE. A point YOU fail to grasp no matter how many times others have reiterated it.
Quote:
We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers. Thats all.
If you really feel this strongly about it...and IF you truly valued the lives you claim to...then rather than kill them for the mere misfortune of being born, you would simply NOT BREED THEM in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I am not a big breeder. Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.
Just go back and see how you defined "big breeder" earlier in the discussion. And how you described yourself.
Quote:
There are nearly half that agree with me, or at least have no problem with it.
HALF?? HERE?? Show me who agrees with you. While some may have agreed on the principle that under the right circumstances snakes are as much a viable feeder-animal as others.....I dare say that is FAR from agreeing with anything you are saying here.
Quote:
Actually. You said you'd rather let the Iphone get wet than the calculator.
No...he said he'd rather lose a $300 phone than to lose a $20 ball python. Because LIFE is far more valuable than any electronic trinket, no matter how pricey.
Quote:
Sir, you keep misqouting me.
As you misquoted him. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Yet again, I am not here to garner approval, and I am just saying what tons of people already think, but never talk about on a forum.
WHO are these "tons" of people? And if no one ever talks about it, how can you ASSUME so many of us must be thinking it?
Quote:
... just keep trying to remind you that it's not about emotions, it's about whats best for the hobby. And whats best is not always what is the easiest, or most fun.
ASSUMING your method is truly what is "best" for the hobby.
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventide
I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. This is why most of us here create animals with the intention of trying to find good homes for the ones that will not or may not sell well. When you keep pushing this argument, you infer that all of us here create "tons of animals with no regard to where they will go."
Point taken. I feel like I keep having to say the ame things over and over, because people jump in without reading everything prior.
S~
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronP
This "Debate" isn't about winning or losing, no one goes home with a blue ribbon at the eventual end of this thread. And you didn't "Blow" anyone away, you have a different opinion that varies greatly from Wes's. I fail to see, with all the logic that my pea sized brain can conjure, how that qualifies as "Blowing" away his.
Maybe his "pea" is bigger?
No doubt I shamed him in the past and he's got issues.
Not the first, doubtful he's the last.
Your logic is flawed shawnc. You base much on assumptions that others have proven are wrong. You ignore facts that point out you are in error.
There's no debate. You wanted to argue, you got an argument.
Now you just look like a sore loser as well as a bit of an ass.
And no, I haven't changed. I'm still calling them like I see them. My integrity is still intact. I'm still glad I'm not you.
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronP
This "Debate" isn't about winning or losing, no one goes home with a blue ribbon at the eventual end of this thread. And you didn't "Blow" anyone away, you have a different opinion that varies greatly from Wes's. I fail to see, with all the logic that my pea sized brain can conjure, how that qualifies as "Blowing" away his.
He refuses to debate me, and just say "I am right because you are not" you can't earn respect in an arguement when you don't make any valid points, and just try to insult people.
S~
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
culling is an option thats way better than dumping them for cheap, and hoping they do OK.
See, and that's the part that explains why a lot of PM's and TXT's are going back and forth right now referring to you as a sociopath ... how about instead of killing them, you just don't breed. Because if in your mind, "dead" is better than mistreated, abused, neglected, or released ... I can guarantee you that "not born" is even better than dead. :gj:
-adam
-
Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
He refuses to debate me, and just say "I am right because you are not" you can't earn respect in an arguement when you don't make any valid points, and just try to insult people.
S~
Like I said, maybe my pea sized brain doesn't understand your comprehension of what is being said here. I actually have a very different opinion than most about this topic, and I had to "pick sides" I'd say I would be sitting somewhere in the middle. I understand both sides of the argument, but I have only had to put down terminally ill animals, and not Healthy animals so frankly I cannot give what I would consider a credible opinion because I have never been put in that predicament.
|
