Is it ok if my bp eats a live mouse, live?

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

This would be the thinking that lead some brilliant tool over at T-Rex to promote "snake sausages" as a viable feeding alternative for pet snakes.

Snakes are not cats nor dogs, snakes are not domesticated, fully tamed "pets", they have not been in contact with human beings in a pet role for the eons of times both cats and dogs have. Cats though are still very much the hunter. Many cats to this day fill roles in barns all over the world as rodent control, my own pet cat did a mouse patrol quite regularily...nothing at all "barbaric" about it (she was of course fully vacinated, wormed and so forth).

Using the cat or dog model isn't going to work...they simply are not the same as snakes. Also there is a lot of evidence out there that the way we feed cats and dogs in our homes has lead to an incredible decline in their general health, fitness levels, temperment, etc. - making them even less of a " good role model" of how to feed a snake.

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Originally Posted by Rep Troll

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to frankykeno again.

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:rockon:

i also read a report awhile back that said something along the lines of how we, snake keepers, should feed our snakes moistened dog food instead of mice/rats.... :banned1:

So, what you're leading to is, we should feed our dogs and cats live rodents? <lol>

Of course, this could be much simpler.
What do zoos do?

They have access to the best husbandry advice, specialized exotic animal veterinarians, and they presumeably know what they're doing.

So, how do zoos feed their snakes?

The simple logic factor here....dead rodents cannot bite. Live rodents, unless you have dressed them up with little masks like Hannibal Lector, CAN bite. You may never have it happen, but they can. That RISK is what makes live feeding not as safe. It's not a certainty--it's a RISK. A risk that doesn't exist with dead prey.

Also, I have had a hand-tame young rat run up and bite a snake upon being introduced to the cage. Rats can be very aggressive animals, and it has nothing to do with their health or current environment, or how they react around humans or other rats.

The idea that a properly raised, healthy, naive rodent will never attack a snake is simply false. You won't know how the individual rodent will react until you introduce it to the cage.

I'm not quite sure how it is that someone intends to prevent a bite if their snake grabs a rodent the wrong way. The strike is lightning fast, the rodent is coiled, and that is the precise moment that the rodent bites--how are you going to stop it? I'm really interested in hearing that, there might be some means of preventing a bit from a bad strike that I'm not aware of.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

Oh, I was wondering... I think there was a post about this somewhere..
Is it natural for hamsters to eat mice and crickets??? Like in the wild..

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I'm not sure about hamsters but rats in a captive colony do enjoy the ability to hunt live prey such as crickets. As they are omnivores by nature it is well within their dietary range as well. It can be a way to provide a captive rat with some stimuli that may be missing in it's daily caged life. This can be equated in a lesser manner to some of the enrichment programs that zoo's undertake to provide their animals with a variety of feeding routines wherein they must "hunt" for food. This stimulates them, engages them in the process and is a quite good thing for them.

It's unlikely that hamsters eat mice, but rats certainly will kill them.
I suppose, in some rare instance, a hamster might come across a mouse nest and eat the young. Rodents are opportunists.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Cats are made to kill and eat mice and birds.
I still feed mine commercial cat food. It is a pet, not a wild animal living in the wild.
I do not feed live mice to my cat, even though she is perfectly equipped to quickly kill them, and it's natural for her. To do so would be considered incredibly barbaric. Something to think about.

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Where did cats come from in this discussion? Many people have cats in hopes they keep away mice some don't but a few do. Your cat is still a carnivore and the kibble you feed it is made from meat.

It would be barbaric to feed it mice, since for a while now probably around 100 years people have been feeding kibble to their dogs and cats. You know what they fed pets before kibble? Meat, raw meat. If I could feed my snake mouse kibble I would. Something to think about.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Rats can be very aggressive animals, and it has nothing to do with their health or current environment, or how they react around humans or other rats.

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Very circular and convenient logic you use. First you believe that reptiles with their more simplistic basic brains CAN be affected by circumstance and selective breeding, then you state as a fact that rats are "very aggressive" and their health or current environment has "nothing" to do with how they react. Now I'll accept a possibility, I will not accept this as a fact.

I have generations of rats that have been selectively bred for good temperment as do a lot of fancy/show rat breeders and feeder breeders - with the belief through research and experience that temperment in rats is somewhat genetic. Temperment in rats is also affected by their "current environment". You cannot state as fact that a social animal, with a reasonably functional brain cannot be stressed to the point of aggressive behaviours through lack of proper care, lack of proper food or dehydration.

In watching this live vs. F/t debate rage on what I notice is the main "get" for the F/T crowd is the assumption of "safety" (from a perceived bite potential). This seems to be their big argument but without proof that feeding live is dangerous to the animal what is really being said is "it is more convenient for me the herper - not a proven benefit to my animal".


Lets address this "safety" question- what about the loss of nutrients, proteins, vitamins and minerals that are lost when you freeze ANY type of meat? You cannot argue this FACT that by feeding Frozen and thawed prey items you are feeding "less" to your prized pet (how long they sit in your freezer and the place you bought them from's the worse they get). There is an entire thread about the poor quality of F/T animals that people have purchased (having urine and crap in their coats - wonder what they were fed before they were frozen?) There is also more risk of bacterial infections from F/T animals. Salmonila (sp?) and others nasties can develop extremely quick (just look at all the warning lables on chicken these days)...so you are potentially feeding a diseased prey item to your snake. Or if you don't get them warm enough you could be feeding a still frozen or too cold item to your cold blooded animal and causing even more issues.

So to say that F/T is safer is just plain wrong and has ZERO basis in fact.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm not quite sure how it is that someone intends to prevent a bite if their snake grabs a rodent the wrong way. The strike is lightning fast, the rodent is coiled, and that is the precise moment that the rodent bites--how are you going to stop it? I'm really interested in hearing that, there might be some means of preventing a bit from a bad strike that I'm not aware of.

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This is where watching until the rodent is dead comes into play. I've had my girl grab the rat by the back end, or grab it funny before. The only time I've had a problem, I took a pair of plastic tongs and up them up to the rat. It then knawed of that, and my snake was unharmed. The rat did initially get ahold of my snake, but that's what scales are for, and it didn't do any damage. To keep it from causing damage, I simply gave it something else to bite until it had passed. Yeah, a snake can be hurt from feeding live, but if you watch, and pay attention, you can prevent things like that from happening.

i don't know if it has been touched in this thread already?:confused:


but for me, pre-scenting the room and getting everyone in "feeding mode" works wonders.:D

after a while you get to know your snakes, you can probably tell which ones aren't going to eat that day. :hungry: :clap: :chew: :tongue2: :mouse2: :snake2:



vaughn

I feed my snake rabid cinchillas and have never had a problem :D

Everyone has there own way and when done CORRECTLY is very sake.

Not everyone does things correctly and problems arise.

There have been threads on rodent size too. When you feed smaller rodents your snakes do not hesitate and kill rodent on impact. You feed to large a rodent you snake gets fat, feeding response is not good and lager prey can hurt your snake.

I like to know that my snakes are feeding healthy, well feed disease free rodents which one can only tell when they are live.

F/T is fine but feeding live correctly is fine too. The problem is what many think is correct varies. Sickly, freezer burned, unthawed rodents can cause problems too.


What ever you feed do it correctly and you will be fine,