For those who have used Equate to treat mites...

Just something to think about folks. Please remember that a lot of people that come here and read these threads are complete newcomers. Often this is their first exposure to information other than what the petstore gave them (which as we know can be very poor or no care information at all). When we give information here we all need to be very aware of that fact. What we do as experienced hobbyists or breeders may be one thing, hopefully we know the risk factors and our collections well enough to take a few short cuts if we choose. We do need, however, to remember that newcomers may take those "shortcuts" and may not have anywhere near the knowledge of their snakes to see subtle things that warn of oncoming issues or may take only part of the advice and miss the rest and cause harm to their collection.

I'm just trying to say here to be very, very careful my friends in what you post. It's read by members of all levels and I think we carry a pretty heavy responsibility to give the BEST advice possible down to the nitty gritty details. We can't assume someone knows this or that or will do things as an experienced keeper might, not when it comes to the safety and well-being of living creatures.

Personally I'll always recommend the safest, most proven route. Not only because that's what I do personally but because that's the safest thing for a newcomer to read about and do themselves.

Good points from Bob ... the guy knows his bugs!

The reality is that IF equate was safe and effective for use on reptiles the product would be marketed and sold as such ... it is not, so it is not ... All we have is a bunch of reptile people that have looked at a can of Provent -a- Mite and a can of Equate and said "oh these look the same, I'll save me a few dollars and use Equate" and have used it and seen results. That does not make it safe and that does not make it anywhere near as effective as Provent -a- Mite.

The proof from the manufacturer of Provent -a- Mite has been laid out for all ... anyone that is still convinced that Equate is the same thing, is welcome to call the manufaturer of Equate and ask them if their product is safe for use on Reptiles for the treatment of reptile mites and ticks.

Bio Sentry Laboratories
515-243-3000
4600 Park Ave
Des Moines IA 50321

I'll try and give them a call later today. I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say.

-adam

I'll put money on it that they would be horrified that their product would be used that way Adam. What company would open themselves up to that liability if something went wrong? If a product was suggested by a company for use outside of it's recommended "target", well no smart company lawyer would like that (and you aren't going to be able to sue anyways since you willfully used it knowing it wasn't meant for that usage).

Remember too folks how many cats have died being exposed to dog flea products. Very similar product but made specifically for a certain species and often deadly to another.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

. Equate is approved for use on humans...Pam is not. I have to think that human health regulations are harder to get approved than reptile's are, even though I take better care of my snakes than I do myself sometimes..

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This logic is extremely flawed. Humans have a different physiology than reptiles. Just because the process of approval for a product might be more difficult for human products (and I don't have facts to prove that to be true), doesn't mean that human products should be used on animals if not intended.

Here's a tragic little story. About 8 years ago, my fiance's aunt killed all 3 of her cats by using a flea treatment made for dogs on them. They died within hours of the application of the product. It was a mistake and a horrible situation but at the same time a valuable lesson. There is a reason for the FDA. USDA and EPA. Governing bodies that are here to make sure that the products we use on ourselves or our pets are safe (as can be based on testing).

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Originally Posted by rockrgrrl

Let me start off by saying that I'm not posting this to have people get into a huge debate of which product is better... PAM or Equate. I personally took my bp to the vet the minute I noticed those little buggers (which was back on December 13th). She's currently on a weekly treatment (both her and her enclosure) of a diluted solution of Ivermectin (0.50 cc's per 1 liter of water to be exact). The problem is that I'm not sure it's doing the trick. Although I haven't noticed as many as before, I'm still seeing one or two. I was told they would be hard to get rid of but c'mon! Just this past weekend I was talking to one of the dealers at the swap I go to and she mentioned that she treats all her snakes with the Equate product and they're gone within 2 weeks. I've read several posts here on this forum about mite treatments and I was curious as to how people have specifically used this product. The gal I was talking to at the swap told me to spray down the entire enclosure and leave it set/dry for a few hours (of course removing the snake and water bowl first). She also told me to spray the area around the tank. I was reading the directions on this stuff and let me just say I'm a bit nervous. It talks about not letting this stuff get inhaled or directly on skin.... Can anyone out there shed a little more light on this and perhaps more detailed instructions as to how they treated their tanks??? Any suggestions/help would be greatly appreciated!

By the way... I'd also like to say "thanks" to all those who have posted on this site. While this is my first actual post I have frequented this site quite often for information since getting my 1st bp. Thank you!

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Here is the first post from this thread...if you read it she is interested in opinions on the use of Equate. She mentions PAM so she is aware of it but still wants to know about Equate. (for whatever reason).

Everyone that has posted the fact that Provent-a-mite is the ONLY tested and certified Pyrethin based reptile mite and tick treatment on the marketing is 100% correct. PAM is an awesome product with a lot of great features.

Everyone that has posted their personal experience that Equate has worked for them in treating their mite and tick problems just as effectively as PAM is 100% correct. As you cannot argue their experience with them. :colbert:

IMHO I don't think that people buy Equate just because it is cheaper (yes some do don't get my point wrong) but because we love our animals and as soon as we see a mite/tick we want to immediately treat our friends so they don't have to suffer even a second longer. (Getting PAM takes time...could be up to a week) while Equate is just a Wal-Mart trip away. There are a lot of posts about "what if" Equate causes an issue (though I didn't read about any specific problems)...what damage will a mite and tick outbreak do in a week to your reptiles while you wait on a treatment? (this is as much a questions as a statement as I really don't know:) )

Adam...I think it is a great idea for your to call the Equate manufacturer as I am sure they never thought about another use for there product and your input should help them to "want" to test in on reptiles too. (it is in there best interest to expand their market):carrot:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Adam...I think it is a great idea for your to call the Equate manufacturer as I am sure they never thought about another use for there product and your input should help them to "want" to test in on reptiles too. (it is in there best interest to expand their market):carrot:

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I guarantee they have thought of it. These folks aren't stupid. Odds are (and this is wild speculation) that they know the formulation of their product isn't right based on all the reasons that were stated in my post from this morning.

1. Safety
2. Efficacy

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I guarantee they have thought of it. These folks aren't stupid. Odds are (and this is wild speculation) that they know the formulation of their product isn't right based on all the reasons that were stated in my post from this morning.

1. Safety
2. Efficacy

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OK agree they have pry thought of other markets...but (having worked in a chemical company before) unless they can understand the size and financial return on a particular market it rarely makes sense for them to invest in the research and certification as it can cost millions to do so. My comments are based on the fact that the more input from customers they receive about interest in using their product for an off lable use will make it more likely they will look into it.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Bob Pound, the manufacturer of Provent A Mite. He may be the most knowledgeable person about pest control and the chemicals used this side of my local exterminator. I am sure the information that he provided which I will post here will be dismissed as bias by those who believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Equate is:

A. The same product in a different can
B. Equally as safe for reptiles
C. Equally as effective

Take it as you will, but this information is pretty damn convincing in my mind (which may not be on par with some of the insta-experts that reside here).

Here you go (his direct information will be in quotes):

Claim: Equate is the same product in a different can and is equally safe for reptiles as Provent A Mite

"The word permethrin is a generic name of a group of pyrethroid chemical isomers. This is like saying everything with the word soap is the same thing. Put your wet hand into a box of powdered laundry detergent and see if it is the same as a bar of ivory, but they are both "soap".

Without exception, these other products use a much more toxic isomer as they are all designed to be applied to material that maybe will have the potential for contact with mammals, which have a completely different physiology than reptiles do. These products are designed to be as toxic as possible to get a quick "knock down". These higher toxicities will not harm mammals, but are documented to harm lower vertebrates, including reptiles, fish, amphibians, mollusks and so forth and therefore can be used for these other uses. Also, only a very small percentage of what is in the can is the "active" ingredient, the rest is always a trade secret of the company, so will never be disclosed (only the generic active name has to be disclosed under EPA regulations). Different isomers have differing toxicities and again, only a range of the cis-trans ratio is given on a label, so one can never find out what is really in the can (again trade secret).

Since a product is only approved by the EPA for the uses listed on the label, chemicals in the formula that are not toxic to the host for the testing submitted, doesn't mean they would not be toxic to a host not listed. If fact many of the "inerts" used in these permethrin formulas are toxic to reptiles. If the company tried to receive EPA approval with these formulas for use on reptiles, they would not, as the EPA would not allow a product to be sold that would harm the host listed on the label. This is why the EPA regulations state that it is a federal offense to sell or use a product inconsistent with the label, not only because of the risk to the host, but also because such usage can create resistance.

Many products for example, use a more toxic isomer and then use a synergist such as PBO. PBO breaks through the insect's defense and its synergistic activity makes the insecticide more powerful and effective. With the high cost of insecticides, PBO effectively reduces the cost by allowing the product to use les s active ingredient to obtain the mortality rate desired. The problem with this is PBO is absolutely toxic to reptiles with several published studies regarding using PBO for the killing of brown tree and other snakes confirming this.

Despite anyone's claim to the contrary, many of these other "identical" products have injured and killed many reptiles as we get the phone calls from people telling us after the fact. Also many times, the exposure can lead to chronic health problems instead of an acute reaction, so if the animal dies at a later date, no one looks back and understands the actual cause of death. This is a classic example with no pest strips. No clinical studies were ever performed and people just started using them, using their animals as guinea pigs. Only after many years of usage were the risks associated with them disclosed. This has been established by many leading zoos and vets, but even now, many people still swear they are the best thing to use and do not pose any risk."

Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that has been approved by the EPA and USDA], has undergone extensive clinical and field studies to insure that will eliminate, not just control a mite or tick problem and is unique enough to have received a patent. No other product is more effective or can make these claims and certainly no other product is the same as Provent-a-mite™”


Claim: Equate (and other similar products) are equally as effective in killing mites and their eggs


"Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that will create residual protection that will not drop down to levels that can create resistance. We use a proprietary "time" release that ensures that it will create a long term residual effect at a high enough concentration to prevent the potential t o create resistant pests. Since mites and ticks can carry several diseases that can be harmful or fatal to the host, just getting an infestation is already too late if the pest was infected. Applying Provent-a-mite™to a cloth and then wiping around any openings in a cage will provide a barrier that will last a minimum of 30 days (usually 60 to 180 days). This will kill any ectoparasites before they can infest and potentially infect an animal. None of these other products can do this as their formulas are designed to break down very quickly, often in as little as 48 hours.

Provent-a-mite™ is also one of the least expensive methods when one compares the cost per application and the number of applications required. To treat an average 4' x 2' cage is approximately 50¢ with usually only one application required. To use the product preventatively, the cost for an average cage is about 5¢. The product has an average shelf life of 7 years. One of the biggest problems is that many people overuse the product, so the can will not treat as many cages as it actually should, costing more to use it than necessary.”

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Only one thing to say http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...uAreTheMan.gif

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Originally Posted by SoulSmilen

Pot, kettle, black.

For those of you being critical saying people shouldn't risk the snake's life by being too cheap to spend the extra $20.00... how's about not being too lazy to type out the full name of Provent A Mite so new folks reading and searching for mite treatments don't assume "PAM" means the cooking spray product and use it instead?

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I am very sensitive to this. If you notice, in all of my posts I always type out Provent A Mite and then sometimes put (PAM) in brackets... but I never just type out PAM - because when I first got mites... I was on my way out to buy some Pam cooking spray to treat them. I had no idea.

So I've always taken care to type out the full name.

Another little thing I do... (and feel free to join me) when I find a thread where PAM is being mentioned... I post in it and write out Provent A Mite (PAM). Rather than asking everyone else to change... become the change you wish to see! ;)

And Jamie... thanks for making the call! Great information. :sunny:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

And Jamie... thanks for making the call! Great information. :sunny:

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I agree. Great info! :sweeet: