Is live feeding really that bad?

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

That said I wouldn't keep snakes if they were LIVE feeders as I just couldn't do it .

The funny thing is over all the years I've been keeping snakes of all types including Cape File snakes , Boas , Burms , Kings , Milks , Garters , Rhino Ratsnakes , Bamboo Ratsnakes , Corns and over thirty Royals ....... I've never had one single snake that wouldn't take defrosted frozen mice / rats so I'm puzzled as to why there are apparently so many snakes out there who simply HAVE to eat LIVE food .

Just to be clear here .. .. I'm not judging anyone just expressing a view .

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Your "over all the years" experience isn't even a drop in a bucket in the grand scheme. Most of the snakes you listed would eat a scented stone if you threw it at them so that doesn't much help either.

Let's go hypothetical and say that I decided to agree with you that every snake can eventually be coaxed to willingly feed on f/t prey. How long can we ethically wait before resorting to assist feeding? Why don't you feel obligated to exhaust all methods of food presentation, including live, as a responsible owner who has decided to keep these animals? You're keeping snakes as pets - for the most part, animals that don't slither around scavenging meals. Sure, some species will jump on f/t right out of the gate, but not all. Is this really a more ethical solution than feeding a live rodent? What about for the snake? Shouldn't they be offered the courtesy of a full stomach without us starving them out first or heaping stress on them by shoving something, unwanted, into their gullet?

i feel you on the whole WILD talk, because snakes aren't fed frozen/thawed food in the wild, so LIVE prey all day for my babies.. Gives them that whole im still in AFRICA type feel and not in a container know what i'm saying?...that's just me though..

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Originally Posted by ECechoHO

i feel you on the whole WILD talk, because snakes aren't fed frozen/thawed food in the wild, so LIVE prey all day for my babies.. Gives them that whole im still in AFRICA type feel and not in a container know what i'm saying?...that's just me though..

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Kind of missed my point, ECechoHO - surely my fault posting so late on a week night without my wits about me. Plenty of snakes in the wild go for inanimate prey so long as it smells like food. I just feel like if we're going to be responsible for these critters in captivity we should, at a minimum, offer the serpent equivalent of 3 hots and a cot. That means setting aside your distaste and feeding live when you have to - even if it's just until you can convert an animal to f/t without putting them through the wringer first. I think this thread is a pretty good testament that feeding live, responsibly, is safe for the snake and not the horror show it's sometimes made to be for the prey.

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Originally Posted by John1982

Your "over all the years" experience isn't even a drop in a bucket in the grand scheme. Most of the snakes you listed would eat a scented stone if you threw it at them so that doesn't much help either.

Let's go hypothetical and say that I decided to agree with you that every snake can eventually be coaxed to willingly feed on f/t prey. How long can we ethically wait before resorting to assist feeding? Why don't you feel obligated to exhaust all methods of food presentation, including live, as a responsible owner who has decided to keep these animals? You're keeping snakes as pets - for the most part, animals that don't slither around scavenging meals. Sure, some species will jump on f/t right out of the gate, but not all. Is this really a more ethical solution than feeding a live rodent? What about for the snake? Shouldn't they be offered the courtesy of a full stomach without us starving them out first or heaping stress on them by shoving something, unwanted, into their gullet?

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You've conveniently disregarded the part where I mentioned I've kept over 30 Royals / Balls who are notoriously fussy / poor feeders and they've all taken defrosted frozen with no issues whatsoever ..... Yet so many in here seemingly haven't been quite so lucky .... I've never even got close to considering assist or force feeding .

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Originally Posted by ECechoHO

i feel you on the whole WILD talk, because snakes aren't fed frozen/thawed food in the wild, so LIVE prey all day for my babies.. Gives them that whole im still in AFRICA type feel and not in a container know what i'm saying?...that's just me though..

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That said .... live feeding was previously described a few days ( in this very thread ) as though the rodent usually finds a quiet corner and falls asleep and then the snake attacks ..... so why not simply warm up a defrosted rodent and leave it in a corner ( like I do very successfully ) .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

You've conveniently disregarded the part where I mentioned I've kept over 30 Royals / Balls who are notoriously fussy / poor feeders and they've all taken defrosted frozen with no issues whatsoever ..... Yet so many in here seemingly haven't been quite so lucky .... I've never even got close to considering assist or force feeding .

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I did not disregard anything, your experience is still minuscule when compared to the whole. You said yourself that you would not keep snakes if they were live feeders so your "data" is already skewed. How many of your 30 plus royals were feeding on live when you acquired them? Just trying to get a feel for your experience in converting. Your source(s) on serpent slaying rodents and rodent torturing serpents has me doubting you at times - sorry.

I'm personally in the process of switching my older regius over to f/t - just on their own terms, not mine. I usually get anywhere from 25-50% of hatchlings to take f/t on their first meal without a hassle. The rest get live and most of those are pretty easy switches after just a few feedings. The ones who really want nothing to do with f/t can often be switched shortly after breaking their puberty fast or after their first breeding season fast for some stingier animals. I'm not switching them because I'm scared for the safety of my snakes or the well being of my rodents. It's simply a personal choice at this point in my life - mainly due to me phasing down on royals as my projects come closer to fruition.

Personally, I do f/t because I don't have to worry if the snake won't eat the food(about taking care of another live animal). Plus, many times they pee/poo during the constriction and it grosses me out. I know compared to other things it's petty, but it's true. I'd still do it if I had to, it just weirds me out

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Originally Posted by John1982

I did not disregard anything, your experience is still minuscule when compared to the whole. You said yourself that you would not keep snakes if they were live feeders so your "data" is already skewed. How many of your 30 plus royals were feeding on live when you acquired them? Just trying to get a feel for your experience in converting. Your source(s) on serpent slaying rodents and rodent torturing serpents has me doubting you at times - sorry.

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I have never claimed to have ever converted a snake from LIVE to d/f frozen to be fair .

In the UK the norm is feeding d/f frozen though , of course .

As far as the rodents being relaxed, I watch all my snakes for feeding(unless it's a pinkie/crawler) and none of the rodents I fed to my 20 snakes(not counting the pinkie eaters) acted at all distressed until they were constricted. They wandered about, sniffing even at the snakes and bedding and acted curious. A few even stopped and washed their face.

This is unusual in my experience only because my snakes usually hit the rodents immediately but several of them are in heavy shed, so I'm assuming they were a bit slower to strike this time.

I had one snake who missed that I dropped the rodent in and when the rat climbed over one of her coils, she pushed him against the water bin, squishing his neck and pinning him there. Even THEN, he sort of waited and then wriggled his way out, then climbed back over to wander the bin. He did wander back to in front of her face and was struck and constricted.

By tapping near the eye, I can test to see when a rat is conscious. If a rodent is constricted properly(75% of the time), the rat does not respond at all within 3-4 seconds of constriction. A small percentage of time, the rat takes up to 15-20 seconds to stop responding. After this point, a rat may still show twitching, either of tails or legs paddling, which does not mean the brain is conscious(this effect occurs even if you behead the rat). That doesn't mean the rat is conscious and in pain.

This is just my own personal observations. I did think when I watched the rat getting squished and remaining calm that I really wished I had a camera because he just looked vaguely annoyed and patient, instead of paniced or angry.

I had a carpet python that defined the term "Mean as a Snake". She was a vicious little girl and an aggressive feeder. Feeding love was never a problem because the mouse usually died of blunt force trauma before the constructing ever started.
However, the first rat I gave her decided to fight back and scratched up her side. Nothing too bad, but she was so gorgeous I couldn't risk it. (Mike Curtin's famous Scattershot is her brother).
So, after that, I would grab a rat by a leg and a tail and hit it against a doorframe before giving it to the snake. She didn't even notice the difference and the rat stayed warm.

These days, with my ball python, I'm tempted to do the same thing. There's only 1 place here that sells frozen rats and lately they have been freezer burned and don't thaw right. Looks like it's back to the doorframe method for me.

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