Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

Connie,

According to you and the AVMA, dry ice is an unacceptable method of euthanasia.

According to the AVMA, unacceptable methods are deemed inhumane under any conditions.

Therefore, since dry ice is an unacceptable method, it is deemed inhumane under any conditions!!!!!!

What don't you understand??? This is like third grade math logic.

Tyler

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

Connie,

According to you and the AVMA, dry ice is an unacceptable method of euthanasia.

According to the AVMA, unacceptable methods are deemed inhumane under any conditions.

Therefore, since dry ice is an unacceptable method, it is deemed inhumane under any conditions!!!!!!

What don't you understand??? This is like third grade math logic.

Tyler

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I would like to see a link or a document.

This comment I also find very rude and insulting. I don't appreciate you insulting Connie, and if you continue to do so, many people will not be very fond of you in the snake trade.

You are making quite a bit of claims, yet your not explaining any of them. By scientific reasoning, the slow process of dry ice is exactly like CO2 gassing, and if done correctly, puts them to sleep just like any euthanasia drug does before the animal passes away. However, this means that it the dry ice should be placed in after and with out any water to create a slower gas process and not burn the lungs and trachea.

So please, explain to me, in your words why dry ice is inhumane?

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

What don't you understand??? This is like third grade math logic.

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Where in the entirety of the text have they explicitly deemed it inhumane?

Are we reading the same text? How have you decided that they have deemed it so from the below text????

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...And unacceptable techniques are those methods deemed inhumane

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Again, where have they "DEEMED" dry ice as inhumane? It does NOT say, "unacceptable techniques are deemed inhumane". No matter what you read, it does not say that. That word "those" and "methods" changes the entire meaning of the text.

This is getting quite out of hand, because it does not seem like you understand sentence structure. Forget third grade math, sounds more like third grade english lessons.

Hi,

Having to read this is starting to get on my few remaining nerves.

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

According to page 3 of the AVMA (AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION) GUIDELINES ON EUTHANASIA (JUNE 2007), it is clearly written that "unacceptable techniques are those methods deemed inhumane under any conditions....." and this includes dry ice.


......... And unacceptable techniques are those methods deemed inhumane under any conditions or that the panel found posed a substantial risk to the human applying the technique.

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Can you please provide a link to the unedited and unabridged version of this text so that I can look at the context and phraseology?

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

What don't you understand??? This is like third grade math logic.

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And I believe that's quite enough of that if you don't mind - if you continue in that manner you would be liable for bear baiting or other infractions if not outright trolling.

Keep it polite or let it go.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Having to read this is starting to get on my few remaining nerves.



Can you please provide a link to the unedited and unabridged version of this text so that I can look at the context and phraseology?



And I believe that's quite enough of that if you don't mind - if you continue in that manner you would be liable for bear baiting or other infractions if not outright trolling.

Keep it polite or let it go.


dr del

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Derek,

I am sorry...I will keep it polite. Please accept my apologies.

I greatly appreciate your taking the time to read this. Thank you very much.

Here is the link which you requested:

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...euthanasia.pdf

It just seems everyone is ignoring what the AVMA has written on humane euthanasia because it is inconvenient for some individuals to use a humane technique in euthanizing mice, and that would be by CO2 canister.

They would rather use something more convenient and considered unacceptable and inhumane by the AVMA....and that would be dry ice.

I am so adamant about this because I hate to see the mice suffer needlessly.

Thanks once again for your time.

Tyler

So how long does it take dry ice to kill a feeder compared to co2 canister?

Just to throw another .02 into the discussion. I've read the AVMA doc and the arguments here from both sides. The reality that I see is that with either method, dry ice or co2 canister, unless performed in a controlled environment (read laboratory) where gas levels can be accurately monitored, neither method is acceptable to the AVAM. As stated in page 6, the criteria point 3 & 11 is looking to reliability and maintainability of the method of euthanasia. Both methods are “hit and miss” when it comes to CO2 concentrations as even with a CO2 canister with a reliable and accurate regulator you have no way to determine CO2 flow rate other than by look, feel, sound and your gut instinct. (Since the air in the container is not visible and the CO2 in the tank is not visible). Quite frankly I would say the CO2 canister method has the greatest chance of causing pain/harm to the animals being euthanized because of the possibility of very high rate of gas flow (Read your sight/ears/gut are not the best scientific instruments for measuring invisible gasses).
All that said, I would have to commend both sides of this argument for their personal desires to be the most humane pet owners they can be. I know I don’t like the idea of an animal having to die so that another can live, but that is the way of life. (I say this as I ponder getting a hamburger or a beef Burrito for lunch :D)

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Originally Posted by gandalfdagrey

Just to throw another .02 into the discussion. I've read the AVMA doc and the arguments here from both sides. The reality that I see is that with either method, dry ice or co2 canister, unless performed in a controlled environment (read laboratory) where gas levels can be accurately monitored, neither method is acceptable to the AVAM. As stated in page 6, the criteria point 3 & 11 is looking to reliability and maintainability of the method of euthanasia. Both methods are “hit and miss” when it comes to CO2 concentrations as even with a CO2 canister with a reliable and accurate regulator you have no way to determine CO2 flow rate other than by look, feel, sound and your gut instinct. (Since the air in the container is not visible and the CO2 in the tank is not visible). Quite frankly I would say the CO2 canister method has the greatest chance of causing pain/harm to the animals being euthanized because of the possibility of very high rate of gas flow (Read your sight/ears/gut are not the best scientific instruments for measuring invisible gasses).
All that said, I would have to commend both sides of this argument for their personal desires to be the most humane pet owners they can be. I know I don’t like the idea of an animal having to die so that another can live, but that is the way of life. (I say this as I ponder getting a hamburger or a beef Burrito for lunch :D)

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flow rate is probally one of the most invalid arguements period! first of all you can calculate how many ppm you are working with how fast or slow it gets there doesnt matter. actually the faster is typically better since they wouldnt have the effects of the gas until its overcome them. the only reason why gassing them period works is because its concentrated and they have been exposed to ppm that is fatal.

The rate of gas flow is actually a highly debated subject. The AVMA does not completely let on to that, but there are many others (like the IACUC) that argue going too slow or too fast is detrimental in some way or another. I don't think there will ever be any consensus where either side is completely happy.

I’m not taking sides in this as the reality is all methods lead to the same result... A dead mouse/rat. When I buy F/T mice and rats my only concern is that they were raised with the proper nutrition and weren’t killed with something that will harm my snake… And that they were killed on purpose (Have you seen a F/T feeder that you asked yourself if this animal was found dead and frozen so that they could make a buck?...)
I have to wonder what would make people happy in this argument. If you gave up on the idea of “humanely” euthanizing your animals and went for live feeding, somehow I don’t see the mouse being better off… I suppose somewhere out there is a scientist out there making Tofu Rats :P