For those who have used Equate to treat mites...

Pot, kettle, black.

For those of you being critical saying people shouldn't risk the snake's life by being too cheap to spend the extra $20.00... how's about not being too lazy to type out the full name of Provent A Mite so new folks reading and searching for mite treatments don't assume "PAM" means the cooking spray product and use it instead?

Ontop of this, what proof do they have other than one case or two, that Equate has caused serious problems and its too risky to use? I'd like to see the proof. I have used it myself, and thought it worked wonders. Either product used incorrectly can cause serious problems for the animal. If you don't know how to use it responsibly, correctly and safely, get help doing so...or better yet don't use the product. This is all matter of opinion unless you can get enough cases of Equate causing problems to show some solid proof. After using Equate, my snakes are still going strong and show absolutely no signs what so ever of any type of neurological damage, or health issues.


To compare using this product over another, to using cheap dog food rather than a better brand due to nutritional values is a cheap shot. We're talking about eradicating a reptilian parasite...not feeding the animal. There is no comparison between the two other than you can say "this brand names better than the other lesser name because its healthier for the animals growth, and digestive track etc". Show me some solid proof of a number of cases reported using equate, that have caused problems with reptiles; especially used properly. They were able to show it about the pest strips used to eradicate mites, and prove it causes neurological damage and possible death....

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Originally Posted by SoulSmilen

Pot, kettle, black.

For those of you being critical saying people shouldn't risk the snake's life by being too cheap to spend the extra $20.00... how's about not being too lazy to type out the full name of Provent A Mite so new folks reading and searching for mite treatments don't assume "PAM" means the cooking spray product and use it instead?

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Wow... if you're going to use analogies try to use those that make sense.

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

Ontop of this, what proof do they have other than one case or two, that Equate has caused serious problems and its too risky to use?

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Mostly anecdotal... but why the need to test the theory? Is a few bucks worth that?

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To compare using this product over another, to using cheap dog food rather than a better brand due to nutritional values is a cheap shot.

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So first you argue that the two products are equally effective, then you argue price has nothing to do with it? Anyone using Equate on a regular basis is doing so to save money. There's no other logical reason behind it. And I consider that akin to feeding your dog Walmart Brand.

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Show me some solid proof of a number of cases reported using equate

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Complete fallacy. You are making the accusation that Equate is just as good as PAM. The burden of proof is on you.

I for one thought it made perfect sense, in what SoulSmilen had said. What if a beginner to reptiles comes here and reads this thread? He/she see's the name PAM, instead of provent-a-mite and thinks of it as using cooking spray. It very well could happen....

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Mostly anecdotal... but why the need to test the theory? Is a few bucks worth that?

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Tell me, have you tried it yourself? Who said I was risking my snakes at all...I took advice from a highly experienced keeper, as well as respected breeder. It worked wonders. I was never testing a theory... If no cases can be shown, then the case on Equate possibly being dangerous doesn't hold water. I'm more than positive that Provent-A-Mite had to undergo testing to prove if it was safe, and effective to use with reptiles. Was it worth the risk to the inventor/creator of Provent-A-Mite?

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

So first you argue that the two products are equally effective, then you argue price has nothing to do with it? Anyone using Equate on a regular basis is doing so to save money. There's no other logical reason behind it. And I consider that akin to feeding your dog Walmart Brand.

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Yes I do argue they were both equally effective. We are talking about eradicating a parasite once again, and not nutrition. Those two are on completely different levels. We are debating which is both safe and effective at killing the snake mite. The snake is not ingesting these chemicals. Generic dog food may very well be less healthy for the animal, but there is probably proof to back this up. Once again comparing nutrition to eradicating pests are two completely different things no matter which way you look at them. Saying that one is doing so to save money is being a bit stiff minded. There are many logical reasons behind someone preffering one over the other. Maybe the person has used it before and feels more comfortable using one product over the other...

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Complete fallacy. You are making the accusation that Equate is just as good as PAM. The burden of proof is on you.

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How is this complete fallacy? I have used Equate, and have said before that in my experiences it has been just as good as PAM. What other proof do you want? I used it and after one treatment, I haven't seen a mite. There has to be proof to back up the product being more dangerous to use in treating snake mites. The proof would be through a number of cases showing health problems or other issues regarding the product in question. If these cases cannot be provided, then there is no proof. All their "proof" would be are claims, and opinions; not facts. Like I said; it has been proven that the pest strips cause all kinds of problems through a number of cases reported. Show me these cases regarding Equate...

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He doesn't have to. You only need to read the label.

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Thank you.

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I have the utmost respect for you, but I have to wonder, how in the world could you know this? Did you do any testing on both products to confirm this?

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You are talking to the wrong person like this. I don't argue like school kids.

hey, I have a quick (possibly stupid) question for all of you provent a mite experts https://ball-pythons.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
I know it says to spray your bedding. I am using paper towels as bedding. Should I spray the paper towels or would I be good to just spray the enclosure and put fresh paper towels in?

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Originally Posted by green_man

hey, I have a quick (possibly stupid) question for all of you provent a mite experts https://ball-pythons.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
I know it says to spray your bedding. I am using paper towels as bedding. Should I spray the paper towels or would I be good to just spray the enclosure and put fresh paper towels in?

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From Ralph Davis:

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I use Black Knight and Provent-O-Mite:

I have used POM since it first came out to the industry ...........I use it exactly like the can says to use.........this is the ONLY treatment I spray directly in the snake's enclosure .............I start out with a clean tub................I spray the POM in the tub ...........covering the bottoms and the sides...............I let it dry............then I place the white paper towels and the water bowl in..............then the snake..............once this is all done...............I will use the BK "in the air" to cover all the bigger areas around the rack system .........mainly the floor and rack system components around the new snakes..............so they get the "double whammy"

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Complete text here:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/ma...ack_knight.asp

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

It is possible and has happened. They can come in any kind of bedding you use, whether it be they first come in as eggs, or live adults in the bedding itself...

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I have never heard of snake mites coming in bedding. They are host specific. Unless the bedding manufacturers are keeping infested snakes near where they package the bedding, I don't see any way that snake mites or eggs are transferred to the bedding. I've certainly never had mites from aspen or cypress that I've used and NOT baked.

Snake mites come from other snakes, not bedding - that is why it is important to always quarantine new additions. That's also why I always pre-treat the enclosure of any new addition with Provent-A-Mite and re-treat the established colony's enclosures to give them additional protection should I unwittingly transfer mites or eggs from a new arrival to my established collection.

I only had mites one time, from a pet store rescue, who I pre-treated with Reptile Relief before bringing her home. That wasn't enough to kill the eggs, and I placed an order for my can of Provent-A-Mite a month later when mites showed up. Thankfully, due to my quarantine practices, it was limited to that one snake, and since then, I've been anal about my pre-treatment of new arrivals' enclosures and re-treatment of the established groups enclosures with Provent-A-Mite when a new animal entered my home and haven't seen a mite since.

Provent-A-Mite also travels with me to Daytona, and I pretreat the enclosures I take with me to transport any new acquisitions.

I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Bob Pound, the manufacturer of Provent A Mite. He may be the most knowledgeable person about pest control and the chemicals used this side of my local exterminator. I am sure the information that he provided which I will post here will be dismissed as bias by those who believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Equate is:

A. The same product in a different can
B. Equally as safe for reptiles
C. Equally as effective

Take it as you will, but this information is pretty damn convincing in my mind (which may not be on par with some of the insta-experts that reside here).

Here you go (his direct information will be in quotes):

Claim: Equate is the same product in a different can and is equally safe for reptiles as Provent A Mite

"The word permethrin is a generic name of a group of pyrethroid chemical isomers. This is like saying everything with the word soap is the same thing. Put your wet hand into a box of powdered laundry detergent and see if it is the same as a bar of ivory, but they are both "soap".

Without exception, these other products use a much more toxic isomer as they are all designed to be applied to material that maybe will have the potential for contact with mammals, which have a completely different physiology than reptiles do. These products are designed to be as toxic as possible to get a quick "knock down". These higher toxicities will not harm mammals, but are documented to harm lower vertebrates, including reptiles, fish, amphibians, mollusks and so forth and therefore can be used for these other uses. Also, only a very small percentage of what is in the can is the "active" ingredient, the rest is always a trade secret of the company, so will never be disclosed (only the generic active name has to be disclosed under EPA regulations). Different isomers have differing toxicities and again, only a range of the cis-trans ratio is given on a label, so one can never find out what is really in the can (again trade secret).

Since a product is only approved by the EPA for the uses listed on the label, chemicals in the formula that are not toxic to the host for the testing submitted, doesn't mean they would not be toxic to a host not listed. If fact many of the "inerts" used in these permethrin formulas are toxic to reptiles. If the company tried to receive EPA approval with these formulas for use on reptiles, they would not, as the EPA would not allow a product to be sold that would harm the host listed on the label. This is why the EPA regulations state that it is a federal offense to sell or use a product inconsistent with the label, not only because of the risk to the host, but also because such usage can create resistance.

Many products for example, use a more toxic isomer and then use a synergist such as PBO. PBO breaks through the insect's defense and its synergistic activity makes the insecticide more powerful and effective. With the high cost of insecticides, PBO effectively reduces the cost by allowing the product to use les s active ingredient to obtain the mortality rate desired. The problem with this is PBO is absolutely toxic to reptiles with several published studies regarding using PBO for the killing of brown tree and other snakes confirming this.

Despite anyone's claim to the contrary, many of these other "identical" products have injured and killed many reptiles as we get the phone calls from people telling us after the fact. Also many times, the exposure can lead to chronic health problems instead of an acute reaction, so if the animal dies at a later date, no one looks back and understands the actual cause of death. This is a classic example with no pest strips. No clinical studies were ever performed and people just started using them, using their animals as guinea pigs. Only after many years of usage were the risks associated with them disclosed. This has been established by many leading zoos and vets, but even now, many people still swear they are the best thing to use and do not pose any risk."

Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that has been approved by the EPA and USDA], has undergone extensive clinical and field studies to insure that will eliminate, not just control a mite or tick problem and is unique enough to have received a patent. No other product is more effective or can make these claims and certainly no other product is the same as Provent-a-mite™”


Claim: Equate (and other similar products) are equally as effective in killing mites and their eggs


"Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that will create residual protection that will not drop down to levels that can create resistance. We use a proprietary "time" release that ensures that it will create a long term residual effect at a high enough concentration to prevent the potential t o create resistant pests. Since mites and ticks can carry several diseases that can be harmful or fatal to the host, just getting an infestation is already too late if the pest was infected. Applying Provent-a-mite™to a cloth and then wiping around any openings in a cage will provide a barrier that will last a minimum of 30 days (usually 60 to 180 days). This will kill any ectoparasites before they can infest and potentially infect an animal. None of these other products can do this as their formulas are designed to break down very quickly, often in as little as 48 hours.

Provent-a-mite™ is also one of the least expensive methods when one compares the cost per application and the number of applications required. To treat an average 4' x 2' cage is approximately 50¢ with usually only one application required. To use the product preventatively, the cost for an average cage is about 5¢. The product has an average shelf life of 7 years. One of the biggest problems is that many people overuse the product, so the can will not treat as many cages as it actually should, costing more to use it than necessary.”

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

You are talking to the wrong person like this. I don't argue like school kids.

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Who is arguing? I asked if you could answer a question.