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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
Refute away.
WOW ... getting kind of personal there too? I was under the impression that you were a mod here? I'd really only like to continue if we can show a certain measure of respect for each other. I know I have nothing but the utmost respect for your views and couldn't imagine why I wouldn't be entitled to the same.
All that said ... What I now don't understand is that if a "transitioned" animal is acceptable and one that is "geared to taking live" is not, then what was the "transitioned" animal before the "transition"? I would think it was an animal that was "geared to taking live" and hence the same thing?
-adam
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Wasn't disrespectful - sorry you took it that way. Everyone has a right to their point of view and that is respected if not valued here. I was still a little taken aback by the "personal slam" that I felt had unfairly been attributed to me (which to reiterate it was not).
To the latter half: I don't argue that any BPs would start on f/t, but it would seem many breeders I have spoken to do make the effort to switch them over to f/t at least in those they intend to sell. "What's it feeding on? Live or f/t" is a question I have heard directed to breeders at herp shows numerous times - so whether they do it for marketing value, safety reasons or from a standpoint of economical bulk-purchasing of prey they do seem to make it a point of letting potential buyers know this information. That attempt to get them switched or transitioned to f/t vs one which has been fed live exclusively (what I meant by "geared to taking live:) was all I was refering to.
Please don't take that as any sort of slam against anyone - I am merely relaying what I have experienced - I am sure there are appreciable numbers of folks who don't subscribe to that and I think that's fine and I do respect their decision.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
We're comparing live vs. dead feedings.
That may be what YOU are doing, but I am trying to shed some light on the myth that there is risk in live feeding. By understanding that, you will see that examining risk in other aspects of captive husbandry is relavent.
I was referring to Smulkin's comment, "Inarguably dead = safER than live prey" to which you responded "I think that statment is debatable ...No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident..." I was simply pointing out that I don't think your point (while a valid one) has anything to do with Smulkin's point that dead prey are safer than live prey. Unless you're suggesting that accidents happen with dead prey just as much as with live prey?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
There have been incidenets documented with the AARAV of gastrointestinal infections resulting from rodents not being thawed properly.
I understand that that HAS happened. I was asking if anyone here has had a problem themselves or has heard of this happening to someone they know. I've never heard anyone talk about how their snake got sick or died because of an f/t mouse. I HAVE heard people talk about how their snake got bit or scratched during a live feeding. Also, I have control over thawing out my rats, and ensuring that they are completely thawed. I don't have complete control over what a mouse or rat can do to my snake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
10,000 feedings a year without incident is "somewhat" safe? ... LOL
Glad you think I'm so funny. Happy to entertain. 8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
So you're saying that I've just been lucky? ... I really wish I had that kind of luck.
Call it what you want. I'm just saying that you've never had problems. That's wonderful for you. Other people have had problems, and that's enough for me!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
Wasn't disrespectful - sorry you took it that way. Everyone has a right to their point of view and that is respected if not valued here. I was still a little taken aback by the "personal slam" that I felt had unfairly been attributed to me (which to reiterate it was not).
"Refute away" certainly wasn't polite, can we agree on that? At least it's something that I don't usually hear in mature discussions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
To the latter half: I don't argue that any BPs would start on f/t, but it would seem many breeders I have spoken to do make the effort to switch them over to f/t at least in those they intend to sell. "What's it feeding on? Live or f/t" is a question I have heard directed to breeders at herp shows numerous times - so whether they do it for marketing value, safety reasons or from a standpoint of economical bulk-purchasing of prey they do seem to make it a point of letting potential buyers know this information. That attempt to get them switched or transitioned to f/t vs one which has been fed live exclusively (what I meant by "geared to taking live:) was all I was refering to.
At herp shows, the many corn snake breeders that attend often have their offspring on FT pinks simply because that anyone who has worked with corns in numbers knows that FT mouse pinkies in bulk are far easier to come by than live and baby corns will eat them readily.
I offer FT eaters to my customers that request them as do many other ball python breeders. But unless you have information to the contrary, I would feel safe stating that the VAST MAJORITY of "ball python" breeders start and maintain their hathlings on live.
I still can't understand the difference in your preference? An animal that has been "switched over" to FT as opposed to "one which has been fed live exclusively"? I mean, how was the switched over animal fed before the "switch"? Exclusively live right? So what exactly is the difference that you covet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
Please don't take that as any sort of slam against anyone - I am merely relaying what I have experienced - I am sure there are appreciable numbers of folks who don't subscribe to that and I think that's fine and I do respect their decision.
Didn't think it was a slam at all, your opinion is valid and I really do appreciate you posting it.
Have you personally experienced a ball pythons being bitten by a live rodent? How many live feedings would you estimate that you've done?
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
I was referring to Smulkin's comment, "Inarguably dead = safER than live prey" to which you responded "I think that statment is debatable ...No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident..." I was simply pointing out that I don't think your point (while a valid one) has anything to do with Smulkin's point that dead prey are safer than live prey. Unless you're suggesting that accidents happen with dead prey just as much as with live prey?
Nope, but what I am suggesting is that live feeding accidents are not as rampant as many claim and that through responsible ownership can be minimized to the point of elimination. I use my own experience as proof of that, making live equally as safe as PK or FT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
I understand that that HAS happened. I was asking if anyone here has had a problem themselves or has heard of this happening to someone they know. I've never heard anyone talk about how their snake got sick or died because of an f/t mouse.
Many snakes are killed like this without the owner never knowing it. Unless a necropsy is performed there'd be no way to tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
I HAVE heard people talk about how their snake got bit or scratched during a live feeding.
Other than the instances already cited on this thread, who? How many? All ball pythons or other types of snakes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
Also, I have control over thawing out my rats, and ensuring that they are completely thawed. I don't have complete control over what a mouse or rat can do to my snake.
But just as we have seen tragic pictures of ball pythons chewed by rats left in with them for weeks at a time by irresponsible owners, those same owners when feeding frozen thawed may not be as careful and feed a partially thawed animal. Carelessness is carelessness no matter what the method of feeding. Conversly, it sounds like if you HAD to feed live, you could do it in a way that was 100% safe because you are a RESPONSIBLE owner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
Glad you think I'm so funny. Happy to entertain. 8)
Don't know if you're funny at all, I'm just amused by your interpritation of the word "somewhat" :wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
Call it what you want. I'm just saying that you've never had problems. That's wonderful for you. Other people have had problems, and that's enough for me!
So let me ask you this? Do you ride or drive in a car? Do you know how many people get hurt and killed in cars every day around the world (with and without seatbelts)? There's a risk, but most reasonable people evaluate that risk and conclude that it is so minimal that they are willing to feel safe and go out and drive instead of taking a bus, bicycle, or walk (which are by far an order of magnitude safer). Yet, when applying that same evaluation of risk to live feedings you somehow deem it "unsafe"?
Why? Most people know someone in their family or very close that has been in a car accident, how many live feeding accidents have we documented on this thread vs. live feeding successes? .01%?
I'm sorry, but I'd rather feed my ball pythons live food than ride in a car ... LOL ... In reality, I do both, because I feel safe doing both!
-adam
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'Refute away' wasn't rude IMHO. You have responded to every single post here with a rebuttal (unless the post was in agreement w/your feeding method--in those cases, you responded in agreement), so it wasn't a far reach to assume you would refute what Smulkin had to say. No offence intended here either.
That being said, I think we've covered all the reasons for feeding live and all the reasons for feeding f/t or p/k. However, I will say that I choose to feed f/t because I am not willing to take the risk (whether it's a minute risk or not) that one of my animals will be harmed. There are other petty reasons why I won't feed live, but the only reason that really counts is this one.
Adam, you keep saying you are just 'debating' this issue, but it seems to me you are trying to get anyone that disagrees w/you to change their opinion--to your opinion-- on the matter. Before you ask, I have never personally witnessed a snake being harmed by a live rodent. I have only fed live prey twice, so no, I do not have a lot of experience w/that feeding method and I don't care. I choose f/t, end of story.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and choice of feeding method. 'Nuff said.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Other than the instances already cited on this thread, who? How many? All ball pythons or other types of snakes?
My point are the ones on this thread ARE enough for me. There was also another thread a while back where a user was feeding live and his/her bp got scratched or bit and it drew blood. There were pictures too. I think it might have even been a sticky at one point. I can't find the thread though, I think its been deleted. I'm sure their snake was fine, and it probably healed up just great, but why run the risk of putting my bp through that? In my opinion, f/t p/k is safer, and that's what I will continue to use.
This could go on forever. I think I've said all I need to say on this topic.
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Quote:
This could go on forever. I think I've said all I need to say on this topic.
AMEN to that!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
'Refute away' wasn't rude IMHO.
Maybe in your opinion it wasn't, but it was too me. It could easily be seen as a taunt or a challenge to respond. At the very least it was an assumption about my possible reaction. Either way, it had nothing to do with the topic and was directed at me (hence personal).
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
You have responded to every single post here with a rebuttal (unless the post was in agreement w/your feeding method--in those cases, you responded in agreement), so it wasn't a far reach to assume you would refute what Smulkin had to say. No offence intended here either.
No offence intended? You are assuming that you know how I may or may not react without ever having met me and I'm not supposed to be offended? Are you saying that you can sum me up and figure me out based on my posts on this thread thus far? Again, off topic and certainly personal.
Frankly from the great experiences I've had on ball-pythons.net so far I'd expect more from someone given the responsibilty to moderate this site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
That being said, I think we've covered all the reasons for feeding live and all the reasons for feeding f/t or p/k. However, I will say that I choose to feed f/t because I am not willing to take the risk (whether it's a minute risk or not) that one of my animals will be harmed. There are other petty reasons why I won't feed live, but the only reason that really counts is this one.
You do realize that this is the only part of your post that is not personal right? I wonder if I had chosen to post in this manner if I would be given such free reign not being a mod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
Adam, you keep saying you are just 'debating' this issue, but it seems to me you are trying to get anyone that disagrees w/you to change their opinion--to your opinion-- on the matter.
Again, I ask, how is this part not personal? "Seems to you"? You have no idea what my intentions are or are not. I have not initiated one post on this site. I have only responded to what I believe are over blown myths about the live feeding of ball pythons. I love this species and have spent almost my entire life working with them in some for or another. Live feeding is safe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and choice of feeding method. 'Nuff said.
I totally agree! Although I ask that you keep your opinions about me and my intentions off of this thread. Those are certainly personal and not relevant here. I would be really disappointed to see the thread get locked (especially due to a moderator).
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
You have responded to every single post here with a rebuttal (unless the post was in agreement w/your feeding method--in those cases, you responded in agreement),
Adam, you keep saying you are just 'debating' this issue, but it seems to me you are trying to get anyone that disagrees w/you to change their opinion--to your opinion-- on the matter.
thats usually what people do during a debate. they try to convince people of a certain view on an issue.
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