OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ewaldrep

I hope you got your answer before the thread got hijacked :) My daughter bp stays in the hide all day long, and sometimes at night I see her exloring the 10g. I plan on getting a large enclosure so my daughter will hopefully stay engaged in her animal care, but tubs in racks seem fine as well. Best wishes!

---

Yes thanks and even got some of my friends to understand now there just stuck on that people are actually owning poisonous snakes lol
Well it gave them something new to talk about:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

First of all, you can keep venomous in a tub. The venom extraction facilities do exactly this, due to the need to cram in as many animals as possible for the extractions. They have a valid reason. For using small enclosures.

You cannot tell me a ball python wouldn't appreciate a larger naturalistic enclosure. I have friends with Royals in 5ft Vivs that feed perfectly well and are active.

I will always disagree with you on this. As I will never keep any of my animals in a small enclosure, or an enclosure that doesn't represent their natural habitat. If I ever did, that would be the day I stop keeping reptiles.

There is no reason why a snake would grow faster in a smaller enclosure with the same food, apart from less exercise. A smaller space doesn't suddenly increase the nutritional value of the feeder.

People say Gaboon vipers are animals that are stressed very easily. Yet I have my two babies in 2ft tubs when they're less than a foot in size. But neither has ever shown a sign of stress. If the set up is correct, no animal will stress even if they viv is 200ft.

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

---

I agree with the natural viv. I built a five foot termite mound in my living room. I also release asf's periodically to simulate the natural environment of Africa. Sometimes they won't eat when the hyenas scare them back in. Now my RTB'S that's another story.:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvmyballs

I agree with the natural viv. I built a five foot termite mound in my living room. I also release asf's periodically to simulate the natural environment of Africa. Sometimes they won't eat when the hyenas scare them back in. Now my RTB'S that's another story.:D

---

LMAO

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I find it interesting that - to use the term of a long departed member on BP-Net whom I enjoyed immensely - the current dogma decrees that we can bash glass tanks and setups that are deemed too large , but when someone has the gall to speak in the same tone about tupperware or rubbermaid we get our collective panties in a tight wedgie.

Yes, ball pythons are nocturnal, yes ball pythons like the security of an enclosed space and yes a piece of tupperware cuts the straightest path to providing an almost idiot proof solution.

But, ball pythons do emerge from their mounds and burrows during the night and among other things they actively hunt, climb trees (yes climb trees) and roam in search of prey, mates, water, etc.

So as long as someone correctly provides for the essential security requirements in a larger, naturalistic vivarium, then, in my humble opinion, they have improved upon the simple tupperware container.

Keep this in mind when touting the mighty plastic tub as a snake husbandry tool:

Oftentimes, we tend to recommend what works for ball pythons to people seeking info on keeping other species. I have sold cribos and other colubrids to people who have been brainwashed that they can be kept in a plastic box. Anyone who keeps large pits also is aware that they can reach sizes at adulthood that negate the possibility of cramming them into all but the largest piece of houseware (the VE175), yet a simple search on this forum will see that what works for the Linus Van Pelts (ball pythons) of the snake world is often inflicted on other species that need space to be healthy.

The routine and predictable bashers of the large enclosure or glass tank are collectively more guilty of ignorant and mind-numbing intolerance than our new friend, Crotalids. Outside of the cozy confines of BP-Net there exists a whole world of herpers who gently poke fun at the ponzi cult of the mutant royal python and the often simplistic and basic ways they are kept. Again, these husbandry practices are fine and serve the basic needs of the species, but a more comprehensive and naturally correct setup would include a larger enclosure that incorporates ALL of the husbandry parameters - including a humid and secure retreat.

Even in the 60s and 70s there were behavioral studies done on how husbandry affects the stress levels of reptiles. The psychological and physiological studies documented how in smaller enclosures, routine husbandry actions lead to greater measured stress levels. Greater, yes, detrimental - no.

In short, zookeepers and even the esteemed Mr. Conant observed that a larger vivaria with more space often lessened the stress associated with cleaning, as it allowed for slightly less strict cleaning regimes which prevented the elimination of familiar smells during cleaning. In other words, the health risks associated with leaving traces of fecal material in a large enclosure were lessened, and that when a snake could still smell his own funk after cleaning, the animal was less stressed.

In other words, in the case of BP-Net vs. Mr. Crotalids, both parties are guilty of being judgmental and yet both parties make valid points. Unfortunately, neither party is 100% correct. One party espouses the efficient use of space to provide the bare necessities for success with the aim being economy and ultimately convenience to the keeper, and the other is passionately (and maybe a little aggressively) stating that the goal of the keeper should be to exceed, not just meet the goal.

I find it a bit Quixotic that when faced with the dilemma of housing two ball pythons in one enclosure, the collective dogma screeches in protest that the only reason for doing so is for the benefit of the keeper. However when someone touts the use of a naturalistic enclosure or a large (gasp!) glass tank, they also also wail about how it is not optimal for the keeper. In other words, the masses cannot coherently reason outside of the box - or in this case the tupperware tub.

---

And Skip again, probably has the best post in the thread :salute:

First, I want to thank Skiploder for summarizing pretty much a lot of what I would've been typing up now. I applaud your points both valid, factual, and otherwise. We shouldn't be shunned for using tanks anymore than those who shun rack users.

Every snake has different needs, that vary, and we should try to accommodate that as best as we can. I'm not pointing fingers in the following rant of my opinion, because it is that, mostly my opinion of how I choose to raise my snakes personally. Though a lot of it i am basing off facts, studies, and other various truthful sources. You are not required to do as I do after reading this, so don't fret.

Basically, it is not fair or just to say one a tub/rack system or a tank is THE right way, that's the rule, and that's the way it is. There are a lot of things you should take into consideration before what I think is often a "cop-out" for lazier or more selfish keepers who choose racks for convenience or space commodities, not for the well-being of the snakes themselves. After all, in my opinion THAT should be the most important aspect, I mean correct me if I'm way off here, but the most important aspect should not be the convenience, space saving features, etc of racks alone. Or the display features of tanks alone. I am well aware that some species can do better in racks. Sometimes yes. but when considering a rack or a tank, you must consider your snake first, and it's individual needs. Not every ball python does best in a rack, I'm sorry, I won't and can't agree that is the rule, bottomline. I've seen and know of plenty of Ball Pythons thriving, eating well, shedding well, displaying natural mating, brumation, or other healthy behaviors in larger tanks, just fine. And GASP, they can and do eat in tanks, also. If you want to get into other species, Garters (thamnophis) species for example, absolutely do not do better in racks, are known to stop feeding in them, and are not as healthy because they are a diurnal snake who enjoy basking out in the open of a UVA/UVB bulb that replaces their sun in captivity. I'm not firmly against racks, but for the most part, I am. I think it is healthy, natural, and normal for a snake to have visual, auditory, tactile, and other natural stimulus, which they will not acquire inside an opaque container surrounded on 3/4 sides by containing walls, with no light, or often anything that matter besides some newspaper, and a water-bowl. "Because they don't need it." Or "they will just make a mess of your hard work if you try to decorate their enclosure with a natural decor." - Some of the excuses I've heard. I've seen racks so small the snake probably had to go to either the warm side, or cool side and stay there until their defecation was found, just to avoid contact with it, and barely had enough room to do so. I can't nobley agree with such tiny enclosures. What do you think snakes do in the wild??? Captive bred or not, they still have many instincts intact. In the wild snakes have been recorded through tracking devices and studdies to travel 20+ miles even. Do you think they shat themselves when they reach the end of a block of grass or ground matter of any sort more than 18 x 18" and think "Oh no, this is too much space!" Panic, then die? I believe a lot has to do with how they are raised. All of my snakes were raised in tanks. They are all healthy, show signs of contentment, normal behavior, actively eat, shed immaculately, ovulate, prep for brumation, or mating season, etc etc. All in surprise: tanks! I'm not saying my method is right, yours is wrong, end of chapter. But racks are nor personally an enclosure style I would resort too, unless forced to, for a short and temporary time, basically. If you raise your captive bred snakes in racks, I can only assume yes, they will be accustomed to racks, and living in bins. I'm not pointing a finger here, I've seen racks that were spacious, had clear and open sides so the snakes could see out, etc. Not so horrible as most. But I will say I think it comes down to effort, convenience, affordable space, and sometimes yes even laziness. I hear people say "Tanks are crappy and horrible, they don't hold humidity or proper heat, and they blah blah blah." Well if your snake's humidity is low or it's temps are, you do realize there are cures for that, right? If you are not solely doing a rack system for your own convenience, and truly have your snakes' best interests', not your own, at heart, then I can not condemn such a situational rack by defintion and default. But if you are just lazy, selfish in that you don't care to sacrifice any of your personal space to own multiple snakes, etc, no I can't agree. And even so in these two variations, I would only agree with a somewhat spacious, clear, unconfined bin, rack system. But still consider things, like the species, are they diurnal, nocturnal, or crepuscular, or a variation of two? And other variables like that. But personally I will always go for a more natural enclosure with substrate to burrow in, hides for each side, climbing apparatus' for everyone but the fossorial (who simply shows no interest in climbing, and often falls easily. But even she has natural terrain of different varying heights such as a chunk of short wood here and there, a flatter rock over there or there, and different depths of substrate to explore.) In the end, my whole point of this rant, which I really don't want anyone to take striking offense to, honestly I don't, is that do in the end what is best for the snakes first always. I think if you are trying to do that, you are at least trying.

(By the way, yes, snakes hear, and not just through ground vibrations. Want proof: Google the article "Vibrating Jaws Help Snakes Hear" which is a study posted on what I'm pretty positive is Science Now about studies done, proving they hear ambient air sounds as well, based on brainwave activity resulting from ambient sound stimuli and in comparison to ground vibrations stimuli, to summarize. Great article, check it out!)

Wow, I was wondering why this became so popular. Now I know.

To be quite frank, I believe that the lack of respect and the condescending behaviour shown by some people within this thread is quite disgusting.

I do everything better than you. Got it? You lack passion. My animals are healthier than yours. Etc etc. Absolute bollocks. Do you even realize what you sound like?

I have never been a part of a more passionate community than the one at BP.net.


Have fun trying to fit in with the community after posting in this thread, buddy. :colbert:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

Wow, I was wondering why this became so popular. Now I know.

To be quite frank, I believe that the lack of respect and the condescending behaviour shown by some people within this thread is quite disgusting.

I do everything better than you. Got it? You lack passion. My animals are healthier than yours. Etc etc. Absolute bollocks. Do you even realize what you sound like?

I have never been a part of a more passionate community than the one at BP.net.


Have fun trying to fit in with the community after posting in this thread, buddy. :colbert:

---

Who are you speaking towards?

By the way, since my post was last, if I'm the "buddy": I don't come to forums to make friends or fit in, I come to find factual, evidentiary, truthful, realistic, and otherwise TRUE information. When older or more experienced herpers, etc, tell the novices that racks are the only way to do something, tanks are crappy enclosures, and what not, it pisses me off. Because that's an opinion, not a fact. I stated from the beginning that this was all basically my opinion with some factual evidence too. But don't tell novices they have to keep their snakes in racks or they won't eat, or they will stress out, etc etc etc, and expect people not to react slightly emotionally driven. If you want to make friends, kiss all the tushie you want by sugar coating your own misguided opinions,fine whatever, but I won't be doing so. I'm here to learn, not form a comradery with the cliques that have formed amongst you all. Do YOU know how YOU sound? What's bollocks is that some people are too lazy to get off their rear and mist their snakes, monitor their temps, and allow their snakes room to have some stimulation and freedom because they are selfish 9/10 times. THAT is bollocks. If you can't be bothered with giving your snakes decent enclosures, or misting, buying an auto-mister, or monitoring temps, etc, don't bother AT ALL. I think you fail to see the attitude you just displayed in your comments. And now after just wanting to offer how I do things, why, and my personal opinion on the subject, you've brought out the beastial side in me. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

hmmm ok they have a low venom toxicity. Clinical aspects of envenoming by Bitis Nasicornis

It is not only the yield but the potency of the venom. There care is very similar. As far as stress goes in the B. Nasicornis...... My ball pythons stress easier than any of our Rhino's did.
Unfortunately Venomoids are not legal to own here in CT. When we did we lived in Texas. One day we will move back to TX and will get back into Rhino's as they are one of my favorite snakes.

I have had more problems keeping Ball Pythons than we ever did with Rhino's. Go figure.

---

No it is not a potent venom. What the hell would you call venom from snakes such a Naja nivea if you think nasicornis venom is potent?!

It's LD50 is low.

http://images.www.mpbio.com/docs/msd...12-EN-ANSI.pdf

http://www.toxinology.net/zoobase/Ex...nasicornis.pdf

It's lower than Gaboon's which are known not to have a potent venom, but just copious amounts of it.

Please do go back and answer my other questions, because the care of the three species i mentioned is not the same. If you keep nasicornis the same way as you keep gabonica you will kill them. Maybe if you worked with them, you have some pictures? You must, who wouldn't take pictures of their collection they're working with..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John1982

I'd love to see your data on the neurological activity in snakes kept in naturalistic vivaria as opposed to plain and simple. In lieu of said studies I'll accept an explanation as to why you can make assumptions in regards to the "happiness" of your animals whereas we can not.

Disagree, I can't remember ever hearing of someone unintentionally introducing snake mites from their daily newspaper.

Race, really?

More chuckles how every time you mention "not an insult" or "don't take this the wrong way" it's invariably followed by an insult.

Your crusade that turned this thread into a debate would have been better served in a thread of your own. Can you honestly say that you didn't predict this outcome? Can't say I'm upset though, I've enjoyed the read thus far.

Wrong, there are plenty of sight hunters that can often be found in large, open spaces - racers and coachwhips immediately come to mind.

I think ventral scales would be a poor way to determine if a snake had evolved to a life on newspaper as snakes from all types of environment are more or less the same in that regard.

Another "don't take this the wrong way" followed by an insult - surprise, surprise. You should start telling people to take it the wrong way if you aren't intentionally insulting them.

I don't think it takes much smarts at all to do something that's already been done. It's a matter of following directions - about as hard as tracing a picture, if a bit more involved.

---

As a snake keeper you should know that mites don't have to come from the substrate. When i went on holiday i took my snakes to a friends house, who keeps his snakes on paper etc - my snakes came back with mites!

None of it has been an insult, it is an opinion, one that you lot should be trying to change. Like i said earlier being offended doesn't hold any water and doesn't solve anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

Question?

If every single snake ever captured in the wild here, or imported into the United States HAD to be kept in a naturalistic enclosure, do you really think we would have so many animals to enjoy now?

While I do agree that no snake deserves a poor enclosure that does not meet it's basic needs, I find your insistence that they all need a naturalistic enclosure ridiculous.

Until you can provide me with copies of brain activity from a snake of any kind kept in an expensive and impressive natural enclosure and copies of brain activity from the same type of snake kept in a tub on newspaper and you can PROVE the naturalistic enclosure is without a doubt a necessity, I continue to say you are making your snakes more human that what they are. Period. Just because it is pleasing to you, you cannot prove it is more pleasing to the snake. You can claim it is, but not prove it.

Having had experience with keeping ball pythons in large and expensive highly decorated and very attractive enclosures, AND experience with keeping them in tubs in a rack system. I can say that with my own animals, as long as the environmental needs were met, they didn't care two figs how large or fancy or small and plain their enclosures were. Now, I myself found it took much more effort on my part to maintain said environmental needs in large and fancy enclosures. This constant and excessive effort began to diminish my enjoyment of my snakes. Over time, I began slacking off in maintenance and my snakes suffered for it. When I realized I was becoming one of those people who neglect their snakes to the point of poor health, I decided snake keeping was not for me.

A few years later, I decided to try again. This time, with knowledge gleaned from extensive research, I decided to give a rack and tub system a try. I found maintenance so much easier, and meeting environmental needs so much less time consuming, I could devote more time to enjoying my animals. Now tell me, as long as my snakes basic needs of food, shelter, temperature and humidity, and cleanliness are being met, why is a rack system so wrong? If my ball pythons required a swingset in their tub to have their needs met, then I guess I'd have to go with a big enclosure, but to my knowledge they don't use swings, so why is how I do things so very wrong?

If you can prove beyond a doubt that any snake NEEDS a natural enclosure, I'd be very interested to see your results and how they were reached. Since you cannot do this, I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request I change how I keep my snakes. If you can prove that a ball python kept in a naturalistic enclosure is one bit happier or healthier than one kept in a correctly maintained tub, please post your findings for us all to study, and then perhaps you can convince us how we do things is not suitable. Until such time, I will continue to keep my animals as I see fit, and you keep your as you see fit. But kindly stop beating people over the head with your opinion.

Gale

---

I can't provide you with that information, i have already stated that. But because i can't means people just assume they don't prefer a naturalistic enclosure and shove them in empty boxes? Surely that is just as ridiculous as my elaborate enclosures...

I don't see how cleaning can make your 'passion' for snakes go away. I would clean my snakes for 4 hours a day if that's what it took to keep their enclosures in a healthy order, after all i am passionate about my snakes...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I find it interesting that - to use the term of a long departed member on BP-Net whom I enjoyed immensely - the current dogma decrees that we can bash glass tanks and setups that are deemed too large , but when someone has the gall to speak in the same tone about tupperware or rubbermaid we get our collective panties in a tight wedgie.

Yes, ball pythons are nocturnal, yes ball pythons like the security of an enclosed space and yes a piece of tupperware cuts the straightest path to providing an almost idiot proof solution.

But, ball pythons do emerge from their mounds and burrows during the night and among other things they actively hunt, climb trees (yes climb trees) and roam in search of prey, mates, water, etc.

So as long as someone correctly provides for the essential security requirements in a larger, naturalistic vivarium, then, in my humble opinion, they have improved upon the simple tupperware container.

Keep this in mind when touting the mighty plastic tub as a snake husbandry tool:

Oftentimes, we tend to recommend what works for ball pythons to people seeking info on keeping other species. I have sold cribos and other colubrids to people who have been brainwashed that they can be kept in a plastic box. Anyone who keeps large pits also is aware that they can reach sizes at adulthood that negate the possibility of cramming them into all but the largest piece of houseware (the VE175), yet a simple search on this forum will see that what works for the Linus Van Pelts (ball pythons) of the snake world is often inflicted on other species that need space to be healthy.

The routine and predictable bashers of the large enclosure or glass tank are collectively more guilty of ignorant and mind-numbing intolerance than our new friend, Crotalids. Outside of the cozy confines of BP-Net there exists a whole world of herpers who gently poke fun at the ponzi cult of the mutant royal python and the often simplistic and basic ways they are kept. Again, these husbandry practices are fine and serve the basic needs of the species, but a more comprehensive and naturally correct setup would include a larger enclosure that incorporates ALL of the husbandry parameters - including a humid and secure retreat.

Even in the 60s and 70s there were behavioral studies done on how husbandry affects the stress levels of reptiles. The psychological and physiological studies documented how in smaller enclosures, routine husbandry actions lead to greater measured stress levels. Greater, yes, detrimental - no.

In short, zookeepers and even the esteemed Mr. Conant observed that a larger vivaria with more space often lessened the stress associated with cleaning, as it allowed for slightly less strict cleaning regimes which prevented the elimination of familiar smells during cleaning. In other words, the health risks associated with leaving traces of fecal material in a large enclosure were lessened, and that when a snake could still smell his own funk after cleaning, the animal was less stressed.

In other words, in the case of BP-Net vs. Mr. Crotalids, both parties are guilty of being judgmental and yet both parties make valid points. Unfortunately, neither party is 100% correct. One party espouses the efficient use of space to provide the bare necessities for success with the aim being economy and ultimately convenience to the keeper, and the other is passionately (and maybe a little aggressively) stating that the goal of the keeper should be to exceed, not just meet the goal.

I find it a bit Quixotic that when faced with the dilemma of housing two ball pythons in one enclosure, the collective dogma screeches in protest that the only reason for doing so is for the benefit of the keeper. However when someone touts the use of a naturalistic enclosure or a large (gasp!) glass tank, they also also wail about how it is not optimal for the keeper. In other words, the masses cannot coherently reason outside of the box - or in this case the tupperware tub.

---

Fantastic post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvmyballs

I agree with the natural viv. I built a five foot termite mound in my living room. I also release asf's periodically to simulate the natural environment of Africa. Sometimes they won't eat when the hyenas scare them back in. Now my RTB'S that's another story.:D

---

Why not? That horridus viv i posted earlier, was made specifically for a friends pair i was looking after. They weren't even my snakes!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by visceralrepulsion

First, I want to thank Skiploder for summarizing pretty much a lot of what I would've been typing up now. I applaud your points both valid, factual, and otherwise. We shouldn't be shunned for using tanks anymore than those who shun rack users.

Every snake has different needs, that vary, and we should try to accommodate that as best as we can. I'm not pointing fingers in the following rant of my opinion, because it is that, mostly my opinion of how I choose to raise my snakes personally. Though a lot of it i am basing off facts, studies, and other various truthful sources. You are not required to do as I do after reading this, so don't fret.

Basically, it is not fair or just to say one a tub/rack system or a tank is THE right way, that's the rule, and that's the way it is. There are a lot of things you should take into consideration before what I think is often a "cop-out" for lazier or more selfish keepers who choose racks for convenience or space commodities, not for the well-being of the snakes themselves. After all, in my opinion THAT should be the most important aspect, I mean correct me if I'm way off here, but the most important aspect should not be the convenience, space saving features, etc of racks alone. Or the display features of tanks alone. I am well aware that some species can do better in racks. Sometimes yes. but when considering a rack or a tank, you must consider your snake first, and it's individual needs. Not every ball python does best in a rack, I'm sorry, I won't and can't agree that is the rule, bottomline. I've seen and know of plenty of Ball Pythons thriving, eating well, shedding well, displaying natural mating, brumation, or other healthy behaviors in larger tanks, just fine. And GASP, they can and do eat in tanks, also. If you want to get into other species, Garters (thamnophis) species for example, absolutely do not do better in racks, are known to stop feeding in them, and are not as healthy because they are a diurnal snake who enjoy basking out in the open of a UVA/UVB bulb that replaces their sun in captivity. I'm not firmly against racks, but for the most part, I am. I think it is healthy, natural, and normal for a snake to have visual, auditory, tactile, and other natural stimulus, which they will not acquire inside an opaque container surrounded on 3/4 sides by containing walls, with no light, or often anything that matter besides some newspaper, and a water-bowl. "Because they don't need it." Or "they will just make a mess of your hard work if you try to decorate their enclosure with a natural decor." - Some of the excuses I've heard. I've seen racks so small the snake probably had to go to either the warm side, or cool side and stay there until their defecation was found, just to avoid contact with it, and barely had enough room to do so. I can't nobley agree with such tiny enclosures. What do you think snakes do in the wild??? Captive bred or not, they still have many instincts intact. In the wild snakes have been recorded through tracking devices and studdies to travel 20+ miles even. Do you think they shat themselves when they reach the end of a block of grass or ground matter of any sort more than 18 x 18" and think "Oh no, this is too much space!" Panic, then die? I believe a lot has to do with how they are raised. All of my snakes were raised in tanks. They are all healthy, show signs of contentment, normal behavior, actively eat, shed immaculately, ovulate, prep for brumation, or mating season, etc etc. All in surprise: tanks! I'm not saying my method is right, yours is wrong, end of chapter. But racks are nor personally an enclosure style I would resort too, unless forced to, for a short and temporary time, basically. If you raise your captive bred snakes in racks, I can only assume yes, they will be accustomed to racks, and living in bins. I'm not pointing a finger here, I've seen racks that were spacious, had clear and open sides so the snakes could see out, etc. Not so horrible as most. But I will say I think it comes down to effort, convenience, affordable space, and sometimes yes even laziness. I hear people say "Tanks are crappy and horrible, they don't hold humidity or proper heat, and they blah blah blah." Well if your snake's humidity is low or it's temps are, you do realize there are cures for that, right? If you are not solely doing a rack system for your own convenience, and truly have your snakes' best interests', not your own, at heart, then I can not condemn such a situational rack by defintion and default. But if you are just lazy, selfish in that you don't care to sacrifice any of your personal space to own multiple snakes, etc, no I can't agree. And even so in these two variations, I would only agree with a somewhat spacious, clear, unconfined bin, rack system. But still consider things, like the species, are they diurnal, nocturnal, or crepuscular, or a variation of two? And other variables like that. But personally I will always go for a more natural enclosure with substrate to burrow in, hides for each side, climbing apparatus' for everyone but the fossorial (who simply shows no interest in climbing, and often falls easily. But even she has natural terrain of different varying heights such as a chunk of short wood here and there, a flatter rock over there or there, and different depths of substrate to explore.) In the end, my whole point of this rant, which I really don't want anyone to take striking offense to, honestly I don't, is that do in the end what is best for the snakes first always. I think if you are trying to do that, you are at least trying.

(By the way, yes, snakes hear, and not just through ground vibrations. Want proof: Google the article "Vibrating Jaws Help Snakes Hear" which is a study posted on what I'm pretty positive is Science Now about studies done, proving they hear ambient air sounds as well, based on brainwave activity resulting from ambient sound stimuli and in comparison to ground vibrations stimuli, to summarize. Great article, check it out!)

---

Can't agree with you more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by visceralrepulsion

By the way, since my post was last, if I'm the "buddy": I don't come to forums to make friends or fit in, I come to find factual, evidentiary, truthful, realistic, and otherwise TRUE information. When older or more experienced herpers, etc, tell the novices that racks are the only way to do something, tanks are crappy enclosures, and what not, it pisses me off. Because that's an opinion, not a fact. I stated from the beginning that this was all basically my opinion with some factual evidence too. But don't tell novices they have to keep their snakes in racks or they won't eat, or they will stress out, etc etc etc, and expect people not to react slightly emotionally driven. If you want to make friends, kiss all the tushie you want by sugar coating your own misguided opinions,fine whatever, but I won't be doing so. I'm here to learn, not form a comradery with the cliques that have formed amongst you all. Do YOU know how YOU sound? What's bollocks is that some people are too lazy to get off their rear and mist their snakes, monitor their temps, and allow their snakes room to have some stimulation and freedom because they are selfish 9/10 times. THAT is bollocks. If you can't be bothered with giving your snakes decent enclosures, or misting, buying an auto-mister, or monitoring temps, etc, don't bother AT ALL. I think you fail to see the attitude you just displayed in your comments. And now after just wanting to offer how I do things, why, and my personal opinion on the subject, you've brought out the beastial side in me. Thanks.

---

You're my type of person.:gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

Almost identical? Far from it.

They are very different, in care requirements and in behavior. You have obviously not worked with Gaboons enough to witness a pissed off adult in full flow, they are NOT sluggish and slow. They may appear to be on the outside, but when they are in a bad mood they're one of the most formidable snakes on the planet. Ask any experienced venomous handler, if a Gaboon is 'Sluggish and slow'

---

Let me make sure I understand this.....you have never kept ball pythons, but know people who do - so that means by association, you know the best way to house ball pythons (after all - your way is right and everyone else is wrong - by your own admission).

But because someone didn't keep the exact animal you keep, then they couldn't possibly be able to debate with you about said animal....right?

And you also argue, how do we KNOW that our animals are happy the way that we keep them? Well - how do YOU know that yours are? How do you know that yours wouldn't be just as perfectly happy in a secure tub with newspaper that they can get under, water, and regular meals?

Just because yours is "prettier" and requires more work makes you more passionate as a keeper .... or wait - you said it doesn't take you more time, so it's not about tubs being "easier" that makes us less passionate since according to your calculations, it doesn't require more time to maintain them?

When I started out, I provided a naturalistic enclosure for some of my ball pythons, they went off feed, and roamed all the time - a sign of stress in ball pythons. When I moved those same animals to appropriately sized tubs with snug hides - they began to feed vigorously. It was my PASSION for these critters to not wish to see them stressed by the extra stimulation I was providing them and to choose to keep them in a way that I believe was better for MY animals.