Culling Healthy Animals

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Where it will be fed to his arawana and promptly forgotten.

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Only if it's an unattractive ball:rolleyes:

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And yet, they will continue to create thousands of them, and sell them to anyone with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can to keep them in.

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I think I speak for most people that frequent here: whether I buy a snake for $10 or $1,000 doesn't matter, they are both my pets and get treated the same.

My normal male that has no real value in $ but has a lot of value to me as a pet and gets treated with as much care as my $200+ morphs. There are people who will buy that "ugly" or "low value" snake and keep it as a valued, well cared for pet, as long as you take the time to wait for that person to come along.

I'm ok with feeding snakes as feeders and breeding them for that purpose.

I'm not ok with putting down a perfectly good animal that is "ugly", assuming the low price tag means a low quality of life. Imo, it is unnecesary and devalues life.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Ahhh ... but here is where you implode. You have some posts that talk about using snakes as feeders, but you have many more posts that advocates the killing of low value animals in order to:

#1 save them from a potential owner that won't care for them because they're cheap

#2 save them from being released and being a potential liability to our hobby

#3 save our hobby from a possible pandemic of over production

So which is it? If it's just killing for feeders, I don't think this thread would be 9+ pages long. You're advocating killing for lack of value ... unless I missed the post where you were feeding $100+ snakes to lizards?

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Neither. I said long ago, and have continued to say, that I don't like to cull, and I only feel good about it when I use them as feeders for my lizards or my arrowanna. At least that way I feel they have a purpose, and it's not useless death. The reasons that I cull, are the reasons that you just listed. they are completely related, and don't contradict at all.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The fact that shelters are killing cats and dogs doesn't not give the act moral justification. Killing is wrong. People that work in shelters will tell you the same thing. The difference is that people in shelters aren't breeding. You are killing AND breeding ... pointing at people and saying "look, they're doing it too" doesn't justify your actions, it makes you look defensive and sad.

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So are you. You are the puppy mill that chooses not to cull, and sell everything they proudce for whatever they can get for it. I am the breeder who sells only what he thinks should be sold. See the difference? My method keeps animals out of shelters...that was my point sir.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If that's true, then why do you continue to breed? I mean, if it's not about money for you as you said in your original post, what is it then. Not about money and too many snakes out there, yet you continue to produce over 300 snakes a year ... why? Is it because you get a kick out of killing?

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Don't be foolish. Why do you breed your animals? I suspect for the same reasons I do. Mostly, it's a ton of fun. The difference is I cull, and you don't. Thats it. I don't enjoy it. I just think it's better for the hobby. thats all this is about.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Why do you keep talking about "blowing out" a living creature? These aren't DVD players or big screen TV's ... we're talking about one of the most precious things on the planet ... a life. Why do you have such contempt and disrespect for animals?

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You know what that means don't you? Moving a large quantity of less than desireable animals at a discounted price? Do i really need to say that? Are you trying to make me look bad becuase I use a completely appriate phrase? Really? A life is a life this is ture. My animals have a purpose. If I don't think they have the potential to be a lifelong pet for someone, they have a purpose as a feeder animal. In your model, they have two purposes. to make you a quick ten bucks, and to, in most cases, live a subpar existance and maybe even be killed through neglect or euthanized at a shelter after years of neglect. Man....I am evil.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So, it's worth it to kill cheap animals so that you can keep breeding and selling the valuable stuff? I see.

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No, I never said that. I am not selling everything I produce. You are. Who is the money grubbing fiend? All things being equal, you make more money than I do in that situation. I do HAVE to cull if I want to keep breeding, but thats becuase I create the same normals and unwanted phenotypes that you do. The difference is...I think selling the less valueable ones hurt the hobby...you dont' care, and make your money.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If you seriously need to find a home for a burmese python, there are resources available to help you. I know for a fact that USARK and PIJAC both have programs to help you and there are hundreds of rescues nationwide that will take in unwanted burms. If you don't know how to find such resources, I'd be happy to help you.

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Thats not true. Thats sounds great an all, but most of those places that do take them are not no kill shelters. So why would I send an animals there? most of the no kill shelters are over run, and continue to be over run, byt people who dont' have the heart to cull their own stock before they "blow it out" for an easy sale.

S~

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

On what planet is death better for a living creature than life?

Blessings,

-adam

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Not that I am arguing with you Adam, but what do you think PETA believes? ;)

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Not that I am arguing with you Adam, but what do you think PETA believes? ;)

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I didn't hear Adam supporting PETA anywhere in this thread.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I am not a big breeder. Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.

I maybe cull 15 or 20 animals per year. I am not feeding babies by the plateful. I am just making educated guesses as to what the likelyhood is of how this animal will look as an adult, and how likely it will be to find a true, long term home. If I have a Coastal/IJ/Jungle Cross...it's truely a mutt, so it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Yes, I seriously think that it's OK to use low value snakes as feeders. I also think that in doing so, it helps our hobby. I understand they are living things, but so are dogs and cats, and we kill tens of millions every year in shelters because they are unwanted...snakes are in the same boat. There are way more out there already than need be. So, lets take a moment before we decide to blow out a bunch of $10 snakes and ask if it's doing us any good as a hobby? We are already under pressure. Why make it worse on ourselves to make a few extra bucks. it's not worht it IMHO.

If I offered you an 18 foot brum right now, would you take it and keep it for the rest of your life? Be careful of your answer, I might actually have one to send you. What should I do with that burm now that I can't, or don't want to care for it? This question comes up hundreds of times everyday already in the hobby. Thanks to stuff being released...we are all fighting to keep our rights as hobbiests. It'd be nice to show the govt. we are more than a bunch of money grubbing fools selling $10 mass produced snakes no matter what the cost I think. Don't you?

S~

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I saw this thread before anyone replied to it, and knew it was going to end up a complete storm. I knew this because of how you brought this topic up in the first place, here.

I COMPLETELY understand people using BPs for feeder animals for their cannibalistic snakes. But like Adam said, if that was the original, actual point for this thread it would not be reaching 11 pages.

You call yourself a big breeder, but then you're not a big breeder. If these animals have such a terrible quality of life that you chose to kill them rather than to trust them in the hands of people YOU YOURSELF COULD HELP EDUCATE, I have nothing to say to you that would make you listen to me and the other people on this forum who have expressed the same exact concern in the past 11 pages of this mess.

You say we need to "lower our production footprint" but you only euthanize 15-20 animals a year? How is this actually reducing a footprint? From what I understand about carpets, they have larger clutches than BPs but I have no research data on carpets because I have no plans to breed them.

If you have such an accurate crystal ball to see into the future then you knew how people would react to this thread based on your ridiculous responses and accusations. You could also have tried to DO something about the burms in Florida. Instead, you sit here pu-pu-ing us for...not doing something. Honestly I think i lost your point on that one... Education is the KEY to saving our hobby.

As for your 18 foot burm, hypothetical or not, there are people that can help you with that animal. Offering it (hypothetically or not) to another hobbiest who, as far as you know, has no interest in keeping such a large and taxing animal is JUST as irresponsible as what you accuse the keepers-that-never-were of doing. You know, those keepers whose possible snakes you culled because they'd apparently never take care of them because they are low value? And on a tangent, if people were EDUCATED (theres that word again) about these animals before they purchased them, maybe they'd know that they arent an acceptable pet for them. Believe me, I know more than one person who was sold a Burmese python and told it was a BALL python. How does that help us?

My "most affordable" snake was 11 dollars. She was a rescue. She has a place here, for the rest of her life in my collection. She is JUST as important to me as the animals I paid more than 11 dollars for. She's priceless to me.

Why can't you muster up a little more faith in humanity?

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

The problem is, if I have to give up my hobby, it's not choice at all. I'll cull snakes all day long rather than give it up.

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Um, wow. I'm really not sure what to say to this. So...the hobby in and of itself is more important to you than the snakes are?

Why do you breed snakes? I truly want to know because it clearly isn't a love for the animals. (I just want to satisfy my own curiosity.)

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

And yet, they will continue to create thousands of them, and sell them to anyone with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can to keep them in. See my point? Which is worse?

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How many people here have mentioned they find good homes for their "ugly, unwanted" snakes? Who is this "they" you are referring to?

Yes, there are people who care more about the almighty dollar than the animals and will sell them to anyone "with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can." I don't know what fraction of breeders fall into this category, but just from reading people's responses here and reading the "About" sections of many other breeders, I'd have to say it's the minority.

I do still think there is merit in the argument that something that costs less doesn't get the same care as something that costs more. Again, I am referring to people and things in general, not everyone. It's just human nature. (I like the $10 sunglasses example!)

Then again, I've noticed that reptiles, in general, are more likely to be considered "throw-away" animals. Again, I'm referring to the general public, here. My vet tech friend tells me stories of people who don't want to treat their snake's RI or have surgery to save the life of their tortoise because "it's just a snake" or "it's just a tortoise." She's even heard someone say that if it were their dog, they'd spend thousands to save it without thinking twice, but they weren't willing to spend a couple hundred to save their turtle.

However, just because a snake "might" end up in the wrong hands does not, in my opinion, justify killing said snake. It might end up in a bad home (if one doesn't take the time/effort/money to make sure it doesn't) or it may not. You may die a slow, painful death someday, or you may not. Would you rather just die now instead of maybe suffering a lot later?

You're free to think/do what you will, but I agree with others here who have said that you need to do it for the right reason, not for a false reason you want others to justify. For example, rabernet (sorry, I don't know your name right offhand) values the lives of every snake she produces. Therefore, she will spend extra time/money/effort to find good homes for them. You, it seems, do not value the lives of every snake you produce, so you prefer to feed it to your other pets. If you did value the lives of all the snakes you produce, you'd either try hard to produce as few "throw-away" snakes as possible, be sure to find good homes for them, or you'd stop your hobby altogether.

I'd also like to know where all these shelters are that (1) actually accept reptiles and (2) are overflowing with unwanted snakes. Even the herp societies around here don't have very many (as far as I know).

Oh, one more thing. You say you cull your "ugly" animals because you think it will help our hobby against those who turn loose unwanted animals and lead to the legislative issues we've been having lately. The only animals that are becoming problems are the big snakes (Retics, Burms, Rocks, etc.), and that problem is only occurring in Florida. Culling "unwanted" ball pythons or jungle carpet pythons does not help this issue any at all. No one's JCP or BP is going to survive for very long if turned loose, so your argument here is faulty.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

I didn't hear Adam supporting PETA anywhere in this thread.

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You misunderstand me Waltah!, I wasn't suggesting that he supports PETA, I am pointing out that that is what they believe.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

I'm willing to bet that you will stand here and hold your ground even though you will continue to get shut down by the other members, and shortly everyone will forget all about it. When that happens you will get bored then take your ball and go home.

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Your right. I came here to debate a point that, again, has been a hush hush topic for years. It will be forgotten. That's why I know I can come here and debate, and it won't affect my sales at all. Noone knows who I am anyway right? But I can promise that I'll come back when this overproduction problem bites us in the ass, and I'll say I told you so, and you'll eat crow. And we will all be losers because we have lost some, if not all, of our rights as hobbiest's. Mostly because you are overly sensitive, or you don't give a crap, and are out to make a buck for yourself, to hell with the hobby.

And I do know who some of the names are. I see 3 people I'd call kinda large breeders. I hope more post, and can be honest in thier thoughts. I am not here for attention, to get yelled at. I am here to tell people what I do, even though it sucks, with some of the animals that are byproduct offspring of some of my projects. I think it's a much more feasible model than what most of you do now. After this thread dies, I'll go back to lurking, which is really all I have time to do alot of...posting this much is a huge time sink.

S~

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

Why can't you muster up a little more faith in humanity?

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I could answer that but then this thread would go on and on.

However, it's not about humanity in general but about his specifically.

He thinks only of himself, he is right, always, no matter the evidence to the contrary and will brook no one saying otherwise.

Hang on a second here, ...... one more, just one more annnnnnnnnd that's it.

Your 15 minutes are up.

See ya, wouldn't want ta be ya.