Has desert female breeding got anywhere?

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

Anyone else get a PM from someone with 0 posts trying to sell desert females?

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It was likely this post that prompted them to message you.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

Only needs to be able to breed to justify the $1000 price tag. I'll still buy a female desert for the right price.

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I'll probably end up buying a nice combo girl just to keep as a pet at some point, but I'll never attempt to breed her. Maybe a desert pin, those're nice.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

Anyone else get a PM from someone with 0 posts trying to sell desert females?

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Yes I did and I would guess you did too
Travis

Well,
Johns Woolards Enchi Desert female pushed out 4 slugs today and still has 3 to go....I hope and pray for him she passes the other three and makes it through it...she is also 2000+ g and is kept at lower temps...back to square one....
I know there are larger breeders with a lot of more experience that have to have some idea what to do next....would love to hear it if you are willing to share the same info that John was most kind share....who is a I real stand up guy in my book
Travis
Lair of Dragons

I am hoping John's forwardness will prompt others in the project to come forward with numbers and what they have tried.

Time to put to rest rumors with facts, as John has.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

However, I do sincerely hope that people WILL stop trying to breed the females, soon. They not only slug out, they're heavily prone to egg binding, and they are dying in droves due to these attempts. I think the females should be sold with a non-breeding agreement, the way female pet-quality purebred dogs are. The females should be discouraged from going into a breeding cycle, as it could be a risk to their lives.

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... And this is exactly why I would have to give it an awful lot of thought before investing in a male desert or combo (even if he was the right price).

I worry that a non-breeding clause in a sales agreement would be useless in ball pythons. We already know how much value a piece of paper has to many people (think of all those folks with "Genetics Guarantees" that mean nothing) and basically, all you would be doing is selling the snake with a piece of paper that says, "I don't want you to breed this snake." Sure, you could theoretically sue them for breach of contract if they DID try, but who's really going to do that?

A dog sold without breeding rights cannot have his or her litters registered, and many breeders won't even send over the "pet only" registration papers until they receive proof of spay/neuter. So, for most breeds, there isn't much incentive to breed that dog as the pups won't be registrable. Sure, some HIGHLY dishonest people will still do that, but I think the existence of a registry for most breeds makes it much less common. Ball pythons have no registry, and probably never will.

Additionally, screening of potential buyers can help to weed out those few dishonest people who would try and breed a "not for breeding" animal. In dogs, this screening is of major importance, and once you've found that good home, the dog is likely to stay there for life. (I hope ...) A dog's life expectancy is only ~10-15 years, max. Even if it needs to be re-homed at some point, if you were successful in finding someone honest and responsible, they most likely did get the dog spayed or neutered so it likely won't be breeding in its new home. I am less worried about the person that I sell my theoretical desert female baby to -- since they will have heard from the source that trying to breed their new pet could be fatal -- and a lot more worried about the person that bought it from the person that he sold it to. These are animals with a 30-40+ year lifespan. They are quite likely to change hands at least once, probably multiple times during their life. Somewhere along the line, the message of "Don't breed this! It could kill her!" may get lost, and if the snake winds up with someone who isn't too familiar with morphs, she could get bred without really any intentional dishonesty.

Soo ... Yeah. Believe me, I'm pretty bummed about this, and I have not one penny invested in this morph. I just think some of the combos are outrageous ... And I don't know if I could really work with them in good conscience. :(

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

a lot more worried about the person that bought it from the person that he sold it to. These are animals with a 30-40+ year lifespan. They are quite likely to change hands at least once, probably multiple times during their life. Somewhere along the line, the message of "Don't breed this! It could kill her!" may get lost, and if the snake winds up with someone who isn't too familiar with morphs, she could get bred without really any intentional dishonesty.

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But, the same can be said of normal ball pythons--they're far more likely to wind up in the hands of someone who doesn't know proper ball python care, than a morph would be. Should we refuse to sell them, due to this? I don't see a reason to borrow potential trouble. Once we sell an animal, it's out of our hands, and in the hands of the person who buys it. At that point, it's up to them to behave ethically, and ensure that anyone THEY sell the animal to, knows what they are doing.

The best we can do is try to ensure that we make information available, and promote that information as much as possible, to help reduce the chances of neglect or mishandling. I don't think Desert females are necessarily at higher risk than normal males, though for different reasons. I know it's not enough reason to prevent me from working with the desert gene in the future, if I have the opportunity.
I wonder if a spay procedure could be developed for them?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

But, the same can be said of normal ball pythons--they're far more likely to wind up in the hands of someone who doesn't know proper ball python care, than a morph would be. Should we refuse to sell them, due to this? I don't see a reason to borrow potential trouble. Once we sell an animal, it's out of our hands, and in the hands of the person who buys it. At that point, it's up to them to behave ethically, and ensure that anyone THEY sell the animal to, knows what they are doing.

The best we can do is try to ensure that we make information available, and promote that information as much as possible, to help reduce the chances of neglect or mishandling. I don't think Desert females are necessarily at higher risk than normal males, though for different reasons. I know it's not enough reason to prevent me from working with the desert gene in the future, if I have the opportunity.
I wonder if a spay procedure could be developed for them?

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I am a vet (as of this past Sunday -- yay!!) so spaying before selling them is definitely an option that would be available to me. It would be interesting, too, to see what their reproductive tract looks like on a macroscopic scale, and even to send in some sections for histopath ... Hmm!

I can see your point regarding normal males. That's actually an interesting consideration, and it is definitely something that I often give thought to (the fate of "not for breeding quality" individuals of the various species that I work with).

I think that right now, desert propagation falls into that "ethical grey zone" for me personally, similar to spiders ... Difference being, of course, that I do currently own spiders (and have a clutch in the incubator :rolleyes:), but don't have any deserts.

I'm sad to hear about the 2000g desert that passed away. That's truly a shame. As recently as October 2011 I was given a pretty solid guarantee by Chad of Pro Exotics that my desert combo would breed if I put her on the bottom of my rack where the temperatures were cooler. With the fact that deserts are dying from the breeding process, I feel even more reluctant to breed her if the time came... I wonder if more news will come in the next 1-2 years... either a solid yes or no...

But with respect to eating, my desert combo is a fabulous eater. Granted, she is probably among the weirdest feeders in the world, but since I know her eating quirks, she eats every week for me. She is gaining weight quite solidly.

Well, the bottom is officially falling out on the price of females.

Mike Wilbanks just sold two Tiger (Desert Enchi) females for $500 each, and I saw another ad that was throwing in a female for $100 if you bought a male.

They have no other health problems aside from the breeding issues, though, correct? There wouldn't be a reason not to buy a desert (or desert combo) female if you maybe just liked the look and planned on having it simply as a pet?