Is there a Morph you will never own/breed due to genetics?

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Originally Posted by karbogast

I just wish the spider people would open their minds and realize that our reasons for not liking them are just as valid.

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For the record I am a "spider person" (i just bought one and i think she's the best thing since indoor plumbing), and I think your reasons for not wanting to work with them are perfectly valid, and I respect them.

:snake:

This is a very interesting thread with quite a few different topics floating around...
First off I love Spiders. A few years back I wanted a breeder Spider male and asked a good friend to invest. He decided to just buy the Spider himself and start a small breeding project. This Spider male is beautiful, displays no signs of spinning, and he has produced maybe 15 Spiders to date. Some of the hatchlings appeared perfect for the months before they were sold, a couple had slight head wobble, but one would literally do corkscrews... He would eat fine, lived fine, was active, but would just twist and turn... It was kinda neat and disturbing at the same time. :confuse: I feel (as do most I believe) that it is a random fault that appears with the Spider gene indefinitely. I personally would not acquire or breed a Spider that clearly displays the trait, but as Emilio stated the Spider is the "King of Combos" and I love what they can produce!:spid0r:
As for Caramels... I think that the Caramel Clown is one of the hottest new morphs around. Not to mention the Caramel Glow!:gj: But... Personally I dont have any desire to work with the Caramels due to their kinking... A few years back I picked up some snakes from another California breeder and this is what I was told. He traded a snake (years ago) for an adult Caramel female from a "big breeder". This adult snake came in kinked and he was told that the "big breeder" did not notice. So this guy was stoked as hell hatching out his own Caramels from this female and showed me a few in the egg. He was VERY, VERY excited and at the time was some of the first Caramels I had seen. A couple days later he let me know that they all came out so horribly kinked that they all had to be put down. I think that kinda ruined the Caramel for me!:tears:
Wh00h0069,
I personally dont believe that you can have a line of Spiders that will not produce wobblers or a line of Caramels that dont kink... I keep hearing about the Caramels that dont kink, but it always ends up being proven wrong and more hype than anything.
Simplechamp,
I think you have a good argument there... I own Spiders and think there combos are some of the most beautiful around and I hope to produce more to come. But... If you truly claim to "put the animals first" and then breed a morph with known genetic issues it does seem a bit hypocritical.

Now for the best interest of the snakes part...
To start with a quote from Adam. "Is breeding any animal in captivity really ever in that animals interest? I don't see how it could be?"
I agree with this... I like to give my snakes the best life I can... I keep my snakes as clean as possible, no stuck sheds (will be removed immediately if not a perfect shed), no crap in there cages, fresh bedding, etc... But unless we are working towards stopping the importation of Balls, then I think we are doing this much more for us than them! I love seeing the new morphs pop-out and I am excited to do this year after year! But... I occasionly think what if someone decided to breed humans like this and my ARS racks start to look like little jail cells and remind me of Neo climbing out of his "wombsack" in the Matrix!:rofl:
Finally,
Lady Ohhh,
What is your opinion on this? Why are you trying to be the debate moderator without giving your opinion? Whats wrong with you?;)
Gotta love Spiders!!!!!!!
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/12167KBMFBPN.jpg

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Originally Posted by karbogast

I just wish the spider people would open their minds and realize that our reasons for not liking them are just as valid.

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It doesn't seem to me like there are closed minded "spider people" challenging the validity of anyones reasons for not liking spiders in this thread ... it just appears that the intensity with which you (and some others on the thread) express your issues with spiders (as well as with Kevin) maybe puts people that do like spiders (and may or may not be friends with Kevin) a little bit on the defensive? Or I could be wrong, it happens more often than not with me. ;)

I've yet to meet anyone that's truly passionate about spiders that would have any problems at all with others that choose not to work with spiders as long as the feelings were mutual.

This quote came to mind as I was re-reading the thread, I thought that it was appropriate no matter which side of the issue you're on -

"We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it." - Thomas Jefferson

Just my observation for whatever it's worth (which is really not all that much if anything).

-adam

Damn after reading this thread i'm not to sure now about my plan, i'm a young breeder just starting and purchased a spider female who has a small little wobble like a head bob when she's swallowing, and a little shake. Should i take her back to the breeder and ask for my money back or a different snake?:tears: I love spiders but don't want to get stuck with this defect

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Originally Posted by Azriel01

Damn after reading this thread i'm not to sure now about my plan, i'm a young breeder just starting and purchased a spider female who has a small little wobble like a head bob when she's swallowing, and a little shake. Should i take her back to the breeder and ask for my money back or a different snake?:tears: I love spiders but don't want to get stuck with this defect

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First I hate to hear people call it a defect after all every morph made presents a defect of some kind that's what makes them different than a normal.

You need to ask yourself some questions.

1: Does the issue not bother you enough to keep the animal regardless of what a few people might think?

2: Do you have enough love for the animals to except them they way they are.

These things are questions every breeder or keeper has to ask themselves.

I think it's possible for the spider wobble to be reduced through selective breeding, over time, but I am in the camp that feels this is part and parcel of the spider gene--it's not a defect IN the spider, line, it IS the spider gene.

I also personally don't think it's neurological--I think it's more likely to be an inner ear problem--IE, these animals are 'waltzing mice'.

I have a spider with a minor wobble--he tilts his head very slightly to the side as he crawls, and shows an unsteadiness of movement--just an oddness in the way he moves, a shakiness and motions you don't see as often in other snakes. He gobbles f/t without issue every time, but may miss 2 or 3 times on his way to grabbing it. He never spins, and he rights himself when flipped. I'm breeding him this season. I'll keep any female offspring that appear to be wobble-free, or have very minor wobbles, and sell the rest. I don't consider him to be defective, because his wobble is inconsequential--he's living a perfectly good life. Waltzing mice seem far more impaired, and people breed those as well.
However, if I get a bunch of train wrecks in the clutch, then he'll be retired immediately.

I don't believe in spider lines that never produce wobbles. I very frankly do not believe a long enough time has passed to breed the trait down to the level where it's NEVER noticeable. I do think a lot of folks who have 'non-spinning spiders' aren't sure what to look for to identify a very minor wobble.

It's also very clearly NOTHING to do with inbreeding. Spiders are virtually never inbred. They are almost always produced by breeding them to unrelated normal or other morph snakes. The consistancty with which it turns up in spider lines strongly suggests it's part of the spider gene itself.

I think caramel albinos are very beautiful--the kinking issue is unfortunate. I think I would like to try working with them, and see just how often it actually manifests. If a severely kinked animal is only produced every once in a blue moon, that's more acceptable than having one in every clutch.

I also think that you are not going to solve any of these problems by 'never breeding an animal that has that trait show up in its offspring ever again'. You're not going to find an animal like that until all the work is DONE--that will be a long time down the road. Selecting the least affected animals as breeding stock, and selecting the ones that produce the smallest number of affected offspring, may make the goal attainable.
But don't be surprised if a spider with a minor wobble produces fewer wobble offspring than a spider with no wobble. That's a distinct possibility when dealing with an issue like this, and everything has to be carefully mapped.

I think the folks claiming 'no-wobbles' or 'no kinking' in their line of spiders or caramels are being fairly dishonest. "Low incidence of wobbles in this line" would be a lot more honest.
Folks, your 'non-wobbling' spider was bred from a spider that wobbled. The first spider wobbled. It's in there, and you cannot guarantee it will never show up again.

If 50% or more of all caramels were severely kinked and had to be put down, that would be entirely unacceptable, no matter how pretty they were. If 50% of all spiders were train-wrecks, likewise--that's unacceptable, it's too many deformed animals that need to be euthanized to justify continuing the line. As things stand though, they aren't actually THAT bad.

Womas are perfectly fine--I wouldn't breed them for Pearls.

If some morph turns up where a sizeable percentage of the babies are hatched with their insides on their outside, their faces so deformed that they can't eat, or other obvious congenital problems, I wouldn't breed them.

I don't think the super-cinnie 'duck' faces count as a problem. It looks a little strange to us, but it doesn't affect the animal at all.

I wouldn't breed English bulldogs. Their deformed faces cause sinus problems.

You can't breed 2 short-tailed manx cats together--don't breed 2 Woma balls together. Not a problem.

I don't know of any morphs currently on the market that have such severe problems that (in my opinion) they shouldn't be bred at all. The ones that have minor ongoing problems should be bred selectively to get rid of those problems over time.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It doesn't seem to me like there are closed minded "spider people" challenging the validity of anyones reasons for not liking spiders in this thread ... it just appears that the intensity with which you (and some others on the thread) express your issues with spiders (as well as with Kevin) maybe puts people that do like spiders (and may or may not be friends with Kevin) a little bit on the defensive? Or I could be wrong, it happens more often than not with me. ;)

I've yet to meet anyone that's truly passionate about spiders that would have any problems at all with others that choose not to work with spiders as long as the feelings were mutual.

This quote came to mind as I was re-reading the thread, I thought that it was appropriate no matter which side of the issue you're on -

"We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it." - Thomas Jefferson

Just my observation for whatever it's worth (which is really not all that much if anything).

-adam

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That is a great quote from TJ, this country sure could use a leader like him these days.

Honestly I don't know how to be any more polite and respectful than I have been during this debate. What you call intensity, I call passion and a true enjoyment of a good debate and I am just having fun. I was warned that if I criticised, Kevin and his spiders that there would be heck to pay. But I don't back down to anyone and that is just who I am.

Have you not read in my posts how even though I choose not to work with spider anymore that I have no problem with those that do?

Do I feel spiders, and now after reading Toms story caramels, should be sold with a disclaimer or some type of up front info about the possible side effects? Yes, as it seems to be the most honest thing to do.

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Originally Posted by karbogast

Honestly I don't know how to be any more polite and respectful than I have been during this debate.

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I agree and I never for a second thought otherwise ... one persons passion can easily come off to another as "intensity" when sitting on the opposite side of the fence ... just some food for thought from someone with a lot of passion that is often misconstrued.

I was not attempting to critique your posts or offend you in any way ... I was only responding to your statement referencing spider people and open minds ... it seemed to cast a very wide web and I hoped to show that not every "spider person" deserved to be caught in it and that some are just as passionate in what they believe as you are in what you believe. (sorry for the cheesy web bit, couldn't resist :D )

If I failed and came across the wrong way, I sincerely apologize.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If I failed and came across the wrong way, I sincerely apologize.

-adam

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I wasn't offened, and I see how the "open minded" statment i made could have been taken wrong.

I never actually put my opinion out into this, but now I think I shall.

I have a spider, as you may know, who has no wobble apparent. The wobble itself (in almost all cases) does not effect the life of the snake as well as the quality of life. Wobble spiders tend to eat fine, drink fine, live fine, and breed fine. If there was a severe issue with the life of a spider that wobbled, I would personally have more problems with it then I do.

However, caramels I do not feel the same about. Because the caramel kink can affect the quality of life and could be painful or a reason for the animal to be put to sleep, I will avoid caramels in my breeding plans.

I agree with WingedWolf that this might not be a neurological problem, but an inner ear problem. If it was, would everyone still have the same opinions? :]

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfpsion

I think the folks claiming 'no-wobbles' or 'no kinking' in their line of spiders or caramels are being fairly dishonest. "Low incidence of wobbles in this line" would be a lot more honest.

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I like this statement. When a breeder is asked, I think this should stay true. I noticed this very strongly with Bailey and Bailey, as when I asked them if my spider had any signs of showing wobbles, their reply was better than I could've asked for.

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Originally Posted by Tim Bailey

Jessica,
We have produced slightly over 30 Spiders since we started breeding them. My original male has no wobble that I have observed. I have produced a handful that have wobbled, but it generally goes away after 6 months of age. With that said, I have not seen any wobble in any of the Spiders that I have produced this year.

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He clearly told me, without trying to say that 'his line has no wobble' he was clear to say that there have been some wobbles produced, but generally seem to disappear.
His word held true, as my spider has no visible wobble that I have seen thus far. I think when asked about a wobble with a breeder, the breeder should be clear that there is a possibility of wobble from any line, even if his has not shown any signs of any.

:gj: