Husbandry vent

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bondo

How can you see no correlation with low temps? Ball pythons do not go out at night? How is it silly? You keep saying my thoughts and reasoning are flawed and silly yet you show no examples as to why. You just seem to read as deep as possible into my comments and say that is flawed. I never thought light had anything to do with humidity. Also you seem to think ball pythons do not go out at night. Again I said a long time ago the high and low temps averaged together makes sense IF they only go out in the morning or in the evening. If they go out at night then lows do need to be considered.

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What I see as flawed is keeping a snake that lives in a warm climate at a temperature it is only exposed to for a few hours at night while hunting and most of the time it doesn't even drop down that low.. A ball python probably spends 75% of its time in a termite mound which is at a steady temperature since it probably still stays warm underground at night. I think an acceptable range for most novice keepers is a 78-83 ambient or cool side and a 87-91 hot spot. I don't see anything wrong I guess from what your doing since you have no problems but don't accuse folks of doing it all wrong if it is not done in your way.

You have put forward that people should not rely on old care sheets but yet you refuse new research? Is this not a contradiction? That is what crepuscular means evening and morning this is what researchers are currently debating. How crepuscular they actually are.

Even laying that aside, using the lowest recorded temps and averaging them together is hardly realistic. This represents only a fraction of the nightly temperatures. You are using the most extreme as an example. Look at the average temperature even an average nightly temperature might be reasonable. Using the lowest recorded temperatures averaged together is unreasonable.

In my city and the local observatory to me for yesterday recorded a low of 0.3ºC for all of 15 min then it went up to 3ºC. The past 7 days have a average low temperature of 1.7ºC and if I check the charts that represents all of 200min of 10080 min. You are saying that 200 min of the lowest of the low is reasonable representation of a whole week worth of temperatures? Look at real nightly averages not just the lowest recorded temp. You are using an extreme low as this is a real average it is not it is just the average of the lowest recorded temps over a whole season. Look at the average nightly temps for the same period that is more reasonable.


Humidity yes there are a lot of variables but a huge one is air temp the warmer the lower the RH can be. My comment is it is way easier to hold 60% at 80ºF (15.5gm/m3 absolute or dew point of 65ºF) than it is to hold 88% Rh at 68ºF (15.5 gm/m3 absolute with a dew point of 65ºF ) It is easier still to hold 54% RH at 83ºF (15.5gm/m3 and a dew point of 65ºF) you have claimed that lights (you used lights) make it harder to hold humidity, I maintain the closer you need to be to 100%RH the harder it becomes and the more issues you will have. At an ambient air temp of 64ºF you have a dew point below 65ºF so you cannot hold enough humidity.

The simple fact is the warmer the air temp is the lower the RH that is needed to target and the easier it all becomes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

What I see as flawed is keeping a snake that lives in a warm climate at a temperature it is only exposed to for a few hours at night while hunting and most of the time it doesn't even drop down that low.. A ball python probably spends 75% of its time in a termite mound which is at a steady temperature since it probably still stays warm underground at night. I think an acceptable range for most novice keepers is a 78-83 ambient or cool side and a 87-91 hot spot. I don't see anything wrong I guess from what your doing since you have no problems but don't accuse folks of doing it all wrong if it is not done in your way.

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Ughhhhhhh I accused no one of doing wrong. I said if it works for ya then cool. I am getting tired of repeating this. What you are not understanding is they still have a hot spot. They have their choice of hot and cold. Just like the wild one's have their choice to regulate themselves. As for it doesn't drop down that low I posted average lows not the lowest temps possible. I am not saying they are always in the temps but they are exposed to it at night. They know when they need to go back to the warmth to regulate themselves. People seem to think at a low ambient temp they will fall over dead. Yet in the wild they are exposed to it. They know how to regulate their temps they have been doing it for a long time. I will repeat one more time if you follow the care sheet your snake will do fine. As long as your heating method isn't drying the tank out. However you can run cooler temps though also. When somebody says I only have an ambient temp of 75 so I need a light to get it to 80 plus I cringe because you are now causing possible issues from a light that wasn't needed in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

You have put forward that people should not rely on old care sheets but yet you refuse new research? Is this not a contradiction? That is what crepuscular means evening and morning this is what researchers are currently debating. How crepuscular they actually are.

Even laying that aside, using the lowest recorded temps and averaging them together is hardly realistic. This represents only a fraction of the nightly temperatures. You are using the most extreme as an example. Look at the average temperature even an average nightly temperature might be reasonable. Using the lowest recorded temperatures averaged together is unreasonable.

In my city and the local observatory to me for yesterday recorded a low of 0.3ºC for all of 15 min then it went up to 3ºC. The past 7 days have a average low temperature of 1.7ºC and if I check the charts that represents all of 200min of 10080 min. You are saying that 200 min of the lowest of the low is reasonable representation of a whole week worth of temperatures? Look at real nightly averages not just the lowest recorded temp. You are using an extreme low as this is a real average it is not it is just the average of the lowest recorded temps over a whole season. Look at the average nightly temps for the same period that is more reasonable.


Humidity yes there are a lot of variables but a huge one is air temp the warmer the lower the RH can be. My comment is it is way easier to hold 60% at 80ºF (15.5gm/m3 absolute or dew point of 65ºF) than it is to hold 88% Rh at 68ºF (15.5 gm/m3 absolute with a dew point of 65ºF ) It is easier still to hold 54% RH at 83ºF (15.5gm/m3 and a dew point of 65ºF) you have claimed that lights (you used lights) make it harder to hold humidity, I maintain the closer you need to be to 100%RH the harder it becomes and the more issues you will have. At an ambient air temp of 64ºF you have a dew point below 65ºF so you cannot hold enough humidity.

The simple fact is the warmer the air temp is the lower the RH that is needed to target and the easier it all becomes.

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When did I say I disagree with the new research? Those were AVERAGE lows not record lows. It shows the average on the hottest day of the year and the coldest day of the year. Yes I agree with how humidity works. I never questioned that. I question how it works in a glass tank though. There are too many variables to make a blanket statement that 80 degrees will give you the right humidity in a glass tank.

And round and round we go! Where it stops? Nobody knows!

It stopped becoming a usefull post.
Now its just a match to see who can make a bigger puddle.
Need to let it die.

How to make this post useful....

No idea.

A lot of time has been spent arguing back and forth. Bottom line....it's not uncommon for someone to get dog piled on when they bring up a husbandry practice that may seem out of the norm.

The problem lies in forum "dogma" - more specifically rules laid down that are thought to be absolute but are not.

Oftentimes care sheets and actual natural history only share a sliver of commonality. Woe be upon he/she who tries to expand that sliver...

When two methods are used to the same result how do you choose which is better? Egg production makes a poor deciding factor when your control and experimental groups are one in the same. You can raise some hatchlings up in rather dreadful conditions and they'll more or less be tuned in to their individual cycles. Once the females are mature and producing eggs if you then switch them to "perfect" conditions you will likely see a decrease in egg production and/or increase in slugs for at least a season or two while they get dialed in to their new settings. The ballpark is rather larger than most people think but as long as you're within it, constancy seems to be the key to success.