It seemed so wrong, but felt so right...

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Originally Posted by marct

I totally disagree with what you did. I'm not going to try to change your mind about your actions because it is obvious you are immature, inexperienced with snakes, and/or your just plain self centered. You're not going to win this argument with 99.9% of the members here. The more you talk, the more ignorant you sound. Just quit posting come backs, gain some experience with your animals, and through time you will learn that you made a mistake.

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I don't change what I believe under pressure from others.

I like to have an intelligent exchange of thoughts and ideas, and in most cases I have tried to be respectful of differing opinions. Sometimes behind the security of anonymity people like you chose to insult, berate and judge.

I think it would be worth it for you to take a good long look in the mirror and ask yourself whether your comments are self centered and immature. Oh and, the last time I checked the First Amendment was still in vogue…so if someone wants to continue to harass me, I am going to continue to respectfully state my position, something you appear to be on short supply of..

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

That is a new one. Never heard of sticking a pencil in a rodents mouth. Great - nope, don't think I'll be doing that either. Sorry, I just don't see it....I don't see how pinching the tongs was more cruel...really a pencil? What about the lead, the splinters, the opportunity for the snake to get hurt by that....that is by far the wildest definition I have heard called humane....

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The rats don't chew it up so there is no chunks of wood or anything and the lead does not come out or if you want use a piece of like plastic kinda like when people grind their teeth they need those things, also i would like to remark on the immature thing the way you reacted to every little suggestion even if there was no rude remark in it you responded childishly and I'm only 14.

I'm just trying to help you out. I read your post "Can a baby ball accidently drown". From that post, I've concluded that you have a lot to learn. I'm not suggesting you extinguish your First Amendment rights. I've fought for you to have those rights in Iraq myself. All I'm suggesting is that you stop and listen to what these very experienced members are trying to tell you. I apologize for my harsh words in my previous post.

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Originally Posted by marct

I'm just trying to help you out. I read your post "Can a baby ball accidently drown". From that post, I've concluded that you have a lot to learn. I'm not suggesting you extinguish your First Amendment rights. I've fought for you to have those rights in Iraq myself. All I'm suggesting is that you stop and listen to what these very experienced members are trying to tell you. I apologize for my harsh words in my previous post.

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Thank you. I apologize also. I do have a lot to learn about snakes, your absolutely right.I was very excited when I joined this forum because there are so many knowledge people. In the beginning i tried to be very careful with my words and respect everyones comments. That is why I tried to personally respond out of appreciation for someone taking the time to offer a suggestion. I agree that the tone has gotten degraded, and I include my self in that assessment.

Hopefully everyone will forgive me for being a new learner to this hobby, and help me to be better and not bitter.

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Originally Posted by jere000

The rats don't chew it up so there is no chunks of wood or anything and the lead does not come out or if you want use a piece of like plastic kinda like when people grind their teeth they need those things, also i would like to remark on the immature thing the way you reacted to every little suggestion even if there was no rude remark in it you responded childishly and I'm only 14.

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14, I'm going to leave you alone. Thanks for your thoughts!

Cruelty is CAUSING PAIN AND SUFFERING. That is what it means. The rat whose jaw you crushed suffered horrendous pain. If you hit a rat on the back of the head hard enough to instantly kill it, it experiences NO pain, and does NOT suffer--thus, that is not cruel. This is not really a difficult concept.

Your intention is completely irrelevent to this--what matters is what the animal experienced. The fact that you were saving your snake from a bite may make what you did understandable, but it does not make it any less an act of cruelty, and one that could have been avoided by feeding FT or prekilling the rodent.

There is simply no way around this. Crushing a rodent's feet and face while it is still conscious is cruel, regardless of the reason for it. The animal suffered. It felt pain and terror. I do not understand how it is that you feel you can deny this.

I'm not saying I might not have used tongs to break a rodent's teeth if it had sunk them into the back of MY snake, what I'm saying is that it's CRUEL. Pre-kill the rodent, and you avoid this cruelty.

Everyone here is super cool. Remember, we are all on the same team here. We learn from each other.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Cruelty is CAUSING PAIN AND SUFFERING. That is what it means. The rat whose jaw you crushed suffered horrendous pain. If you hit a rat on the back of the head hard enough to instantly kill it, it experiences NO pain, and does NOT suffer--thus, that is not cruel. This is not really a difficult concept.

Your intention is completely irrelevent to this--what matters is what the animal experienced. The fact that you were saving your snake from a bite may make what you did understandable, but it does not make it any less an act of cruelty, and one that could have been avoided by feeding FT or prekilling the rodent.

There is simply no way around this. Crushing a rodent's feet and face while it is still conscious is cruel, regardless of the reason for it. The animal suffered. It felt pain and terror. I do not understand how it is that you feel you can deny this.

I'm not saying I might not have used tongs to break a rodent's teeth if it had sunk them into the back of MY snake, what I'm saying is that it's CRUEL. Pre-kill the rodent, and you avoid this cruelty.

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Responded offline

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

14, I'm going to leave you alone. Thanks for your thoughts!

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Just because I'm young does not make what i said less relevant welcome to site by the way.

Seems like a lot of people willing to condemn here. Just want to add my support Choco. Sounds like you are looking for a better way to deal with your own situation, and I figure to each his/her own. I have, thankfully, a group that mostly takes f/t without much trouble (except of course, the BP's which seem alternately disinterested in live and scared (!) of f/t). But even with the corns (which eat anything, moving or not :gj: ) there's often a situation where somebody's holding out. 2 missed feedings and it's live pre-killed. A quick whack on the back of the head and it's done. I hold them by the tail, and use the edge of a cage (wooden) to strike against - it only takes a quick flick of the wrist. It's how it's done here in farm country, and the snakes hit quick if they are still twitching. I prefer f/t mostly due to the parasite issues, but I believe we think things way too through sometimes, and snakes deal with it all better than many are willing to believe. I am thankful as well that I don't have to breed rodents here; the stink is more than I care to put up with. Raising mealworms is bad enough.

I don't appreciate cruelty on any level, and while I do all I can to treat these animals humanely. If I have to pick them up live they have a cozy travel box, and I play them nice music on the ride home. But first and foremost they are feed, and destined to die. They are rodents; it is the way of things. And if there's an issue I will act in my snake's best interests. It sounds like your first time dealing with killing something, and mistakes are made. I salute you for being brave enough to share the experience and adult enough to deal with the consequences.

And I gotta disagree with those who need to slam you. I'd probably not have been as kind in my replies. I just don't get the "You must conform to my beliefs" crowd. They are of the same stock (albeit of different flavors) as the people who would ban us from keeping these amazing creatures because they think it's cruel to keep any animal in a cage. Forums are great learning tools, and using them to express your opinion on a subject is one thing, but slamming others because of your righteous opinions is not what this is about. Had you been bragging, I'd likely have felt different. But it sounded like you were sharing an experience, and were/are willing to learn from others. I guess that is lost on some.

Sounds like you have learned a lot; I know I have through this post. Best of luck with future feedings.