New odd hatchling.

Any guesses?

Dave




http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3123.jpg


http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3124.jpg

Yep. :P

Wow um.....black eye lucy?

What is that?

Very interesting. Wish I had one.:bow:

Dang Dave, that's a heck of a snake.

Thanks for the kind words, it looks so much better in person. I am taking some new pics once the camera battery charges up, but here is one more that I do not think I posted here.

Dave


http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3125.jpg

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Originally Posted by kyote19

Wow um.....black eye lucy?

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like what he says. cool!!

If I hadn't seen the KS thread, I'd guess it had some sort of Champagne in it. But....I'll let others guess! Gorgeous animal! Congrats!

Wow that is HOT! Very nice!

It's a.........................well I won't tell and let other play as well :cool:

Definitely VERY cool.

These are some better pics, taken outside, with no flash. Pretty close to how it really looks.

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3126.jpg


http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3127.jpg


http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3136.jpg

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3141.jpg

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3142.jpg

That is one incredible looking snake you have there!

That looks like a really odd super sulfur... I saw a super sulfur here http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ghlight=sulfur ...... But it doesnt have the spots... So my guess is a super sulfur.... An odd one....

Love it Dave, lots of combo potential. :)

Yes, it is a Super Sulfur, or Black Eyed Lucy. Glad you all like the look, it is definately not an everyday Black Eyed Lucy. I love the white with all the coloring.

Dave

Looks like an extremely pied-sided spinner or something to me Oo. I'm not exactly the best at guessing genetics though lol! Just reminds me of those pied-sided corns getting around lately.

Lovely snake!!! Congrats!

Super hot David! Congrats!!

Im going to say.. A reduced spider + Lavender albino + Gstripe?

Champagne Pied ?!

black eyed lucy spinner or pinstripe?

is it not a "mucky" (apologies, couldn't think of a better word) Black eyed Lucy?

A lot of super fires have some yellow blotching or speckling, is this a super sulphur? Has anyone produced a super sulphur that is as clean as the best super fires?

I don't think there is anyhting in that other than one of the het black eyed Lucy snakes, that being the super.

Dave,
Congrats on an awesome snake! I hope this is the first of many cool things that happen with the sulfur.

Makes me want to add sulfurs to my collection. Congrats on an amazing black eyed lucy! :bow:

I was gonna say Super Sulfer also. For anyone that thinks the sulfer and fire are the same, how does this look like a Super Fire. IMO, tatally different genes. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if anyone were to try to prove that the fire and sulfur were compatible, that they would be proved wrong(I had to say this for all the sulfer pioneers out there:gj:)!! You may get white snakes, but, there will still be the Super Sulfer and Super Fire differences.

Guys and gals, here is my take on Sulfurs. What most people do not know about them, and feel free to ask Eric, since he had the original female at his place for awhile on loan, is the original Sulfur female looks more like a maroon hypo, and not like any other adult Sulfur, or for that matter, adult Fire. Eric and I have discussed it, and the most plausible theories are: She is the oldest Het Black Eyed Lucy anywhere, and maybe all of them end up looking like a maroon hypo when they are her age (she could be almost 20), or, she has a hidden gene. Now obviously I would love to believe the hidden gene theory, for all the obvious reasons. This was the first Sulfur to Sulfur breeding for me, and it was using the original female. So, the hidden gene theory is not dead. Now, Eric brought up the possibility that this Super Sulfur might be a Super Sulfur Mojave, with the Mojave gene explaining the odd pattern and speckles. I am open to this theory, and think it might hold water, but, Eric bred Sulfur Mojave x Sulfur Mojave in 08, and produced a SOLID WHITE Super Sulfur, a blotched Super Sulfur, and a Super Mojave all in the same clutch, but none looked like mine. IF my snake is the result of a Mojave influence, I would have thought Eric would have produced one from his clutch first, since both parents were Mojaves.

I will never buy a Fire to prove this out, but if I was to guess, I would say the Sulfur x Fire Super would be a black eyed lucy. That is only a guess, and my honest opinion.

By the way, I would not call this snake mucky by any stretch of the imagination. Someone said it looked like candy, and I agree....

Dave

IT IS A SUPER SULFUR, ODD LOOKING BLACK EYED LUCY. Thanks for all who played my lame little game.

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

IT IS A SUPER SULFUR, ODD LOOKING BLACK EYED LUCY. Thanks for all who played my lame little game.

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aww man.. I was going to say super sulfur mixed with a super stripe. In one of the pics you can see a faint stripe going down its back.

what do you get when you cross a blue eyed lucy with a black eyed lucy?
Does that not get you a white snake? (I see how it wouldn't...)

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

what do you get when you cross a blue eyed lucy with a black eyed lucy?
Does that not get you a white snake? (I see how it wouldn't...)

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a snake that looks like it's been a victim of domestic violence?

Wow that looks great.

Ugh...now I want to start another new project. :)

A Super Sulfur x Super Mojave would give you all Sulfur Mojaves.

Dave

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I was gonna say Super Sulfer also. For anyone that thinks the sulfer and fire are the same, how does this look like a Super Fire. IMO, tatally different genes. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if anyone were to try to prove that the fire and sulfur were compatible, that they would be proved wrong(I had to say this for all the sulfer pioneers out there:gj:)!! You may get white snakes, but, there will still be the Super Sulfer and Super Fire differences.

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I'll bet you're wrong, sulphur and fire will prove compatible.

Super fires often end up blotchy with yellow patches and similar markings to that snake.

That is the most extreme i've seen (hence my use of the word 'mucky' I agree it looks great but the all white snake is what must be considered the 'benchmark', I wasn't meaning it in a bad way, just couldn't think of a better word).

In short fire x fire DO produce some clean BlackELs and some less clean BlackELs, but which do you think some breeders choose to showcase/show off at shows and on websites? The clean ones.


Over in the UK fire has been worked with a bit (the BlackEL was actually proved over here and sold to the US) and it does look like selective breeding may play a big part. Clean all white BlackELs tend to produce very high contrast fires and more clean BlackELs when bred so holding back the brightest/most obvious fires and the cleanest of the BLackELs means you have a higher probabilty of reproducing more of the same.

Similarly I'd be interested to find out if this trait could be selectively bred creating a distinct looking BlackEL. Very simlar situation to the afore mentioned graphite ivories.

Like I said, I wasn't dissing the snake, I like it, but to me it shouldn't be taken as any kind of evidence that the sulphur and fire lines are not compatible as fires can also produce simlar looking animals but most breeders have focussed on removing the splodges, rather than keeping them in because on a less extreme animal it looks less like a funky new morph and more like an imperfect BlackEL with some yellow splodges. On an animal as extreme as this it looks nothing but stunning.I'd keep it around and see how it plays out when bred to brighter/darker sulphurs and cleaner/"mucky" super-sulphurs. Very interesting and a lovely animal.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

what do you get when you cross a blue eyed lucy with a black eyed lucy?
Does that not get you a white snake? (I see how it wouldn't...)

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Well unless you hit double homozygousthen you'd get various combos, it would depend on the makeup of the BlueELused.

Using a mojo x lesser BlueEL for example you'd get sulphur mojaves and sulphur lessers with a chance of hitting the super sulphur-mojo-lesser (ie BlackEL and BlueEL in one snake) which will either be an amazing morph to behold OR an all white snake with either black or blue eyes whose genetics you'd never be able to prove without test breedings (which would therefore be unsellable at any price that would reflect it's true value as a hatchling, not a bad problem to have mind!)

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most breeders have focussed on removing the splodges, rather than keeping them in because on a less extreme animal it looks less like a funky new morph and more like an imperfect BlackEL with some yellow splodges

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Maybe in the UK but here, the Black eyed with yellow blotches are very desirable, after all, some of us think the yellow blotching could be worked and altered with different color palets down the line, don't get me wrong, an all white Black eyed is stunning but calling a yellow blotched Black eyed imperfect is wrong.

When all is said and done, we have Super Lessers and all the other pure whites, a bloched specimen is quite desirable in a rack beside all the other pure whities. :)

My thinking on the clean vs. dirty Black Eyed Lucies is, it is all in the eye of the beholder. I talked to a very cool guy who does alot of business in Asia and the UK, and he told me the exact same thing as the one guy in the post up above, that pure white sells. In Asia, and Europe, people seem to go for the clean look, while in the US, I think it is mixed.

I do not want to put down the pure white Lucies, because they are pretty sweet looking, but once you have one, would you want another? On the other hand, if you have a pure white Super Sulfur, wouldn't you want one with a bit of color to add to your collection, instead of another all white one? Unless you are trying to breed out the yellow spots, I would think you would want one of each, same as with the Super Mojaves, I have one with a purple head, would not mind having a Super Mojave/Lesser with a white head next.

I am sure I am not the only one to at one time or another, thought,"Is the Lucy a dead end project?" There is only so much you can do with a white snake, right? That is why I kind of like the fact that I hatched out this Super Sulfur instead of a pure white one. I just wonder if one day, pattern or color can be introduced into the yellow blotches?

I think this would make for a good poll question, anyone want to start one? What would you rather have, a blotchy Super or a Clean one?

Dave

Wait.. isn't a Sulfur a free standing morph? Or is it a combo of other morphs?

BTW MOST Awesome snake. Never had a desire for sulfers in the projects til I saw that. Good eyes on that project.

This is a Sulfur and normal for comparison. So far, it acts similar to a Fire, and produces a Black Eyed Lucy as a super. This one just came out odd.

Dave

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...IMGP2358-1.jpg


http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP2360.jpg

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Originally Posted by RegiusCo

Maybe in the UK but here, the Black eyed with yellow blotches are very desirable, after all, some of us think the yellow blotching could be worked and altered with different color palets down the line, don't get me wrong, an all white Black eyed is stunning but calling a yellow blotched Black eyed imperfect is wrong.

When all is said and done, we have Super Lessers and all the other pure whites, a bloched specimen is quite desirable in a rack beside all the other pure whities. :)

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I agree with this yellow blotch trait being desirable. White snakes are cool and all, but, personally I think they would become boring. My addiction to this thing stems from the many colors and patterns involved. If all there was to produce was white snakes I would definately loose interest.

my black eye lucy does not have as much yellow or black but it still looks like that.

Let's see yours.

Dave

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

Let's see yours.

Dave

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http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...Picture044.jpg

This is the reason I bought a sulfur instead of a fire in the first place. I've always thought that the sulfurs looked darker and I was guessing that a super sulfur would produce more yellow blotching then the super fires would. I hope this is an indication of things to come. Very cool looking snake Dave. :gj:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

This is the reason I bought a sulfur instead of a fire in the first place. I've always thought that the sulfurs looked darker and I was guessing that a super sulfur would produce more yellow blotching then the super fires would. I hope this is an indication of things to come. Very cool looking snake Dave. :gj:

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@MarkS


But this is what i'm saying, they don't. Both lines produce white and blotched snakes but breeders have found the whiter the snake the more money some people wil pay and have therefore showcased these particular animals. The blochted ones have been selling for slightly less but are out there. I'm not saying they are any worse or anything.

@ everyone else.

I tried to explain that I'm not saying this snake is imperfect or undesirable, that is just not how the "posterchild" examples of this morph (BlackEL) is made out/has been made out to be.

As more and more people do fire x fire and BlackEl x fire they are finding that the "quality" or amount of whiteness is variable.

So you have BlackELs being produced of varying whitness. Your breeder can either showcase the whitest or the least white on his/her website, show stalls, books, photographs magazing articles etc etc.

Similarly when you look into purchasing a BlackEL you'll find snakes being offered with varying amounts of yellow patches, varying tiny numbers of yellow scales or no yellow at all.

At the moment (and generaly speaking, like I've said multipletimes now i've never seen one as extreme/spectacular as this before and I have never said I dislike it, this would be an exception i'd expect!) the less white the BlackEL the lower the sale price.


As People begin selectively breeding for certain traits (as is happening with Ivories) this will change and both clean and other BlackELs will be appcreciated seperately in their own right. We have fires here and they were produced by a flawless BLackEl with no yellow at all x fire. Some of the sires siblings have yellow on them and his BlackEL offspring had varying amounts of yellow from little to none. I'm positive that selective breeding will play a big part in how both the fire, sulphur and BlackEL morphs will look in the future. We'll see as many lines/traits differences and grades as we do with the pastel, superpastel, yellowbelly and ivory morphs (etc etc). I'm not saying either is better, In my origingal post I was simply trying to be conscise for the benefit of people guessing all kinds of crazy combos :)


Similar to the whole super mojave thing, not as clean/white as other BlueELs but spectular in it's own right and actually my personal favorate BlueEL.

Apologies for my spelling, had a long night and no sleep :tears:

I think the variable blotching on the Black Eyed Leucistic is pretty damn cool. The reason that the "posterchild" for this snake was a pure white snake was due to some creative photoshopping when the snake was first introduced to people in the US. I personally can't recall seeing any super Fires that are pure white. I feel like Bob Clark may have had one on his table at Daytona a couple of years ago that was but I could be wrong. Just because it isn't pure white doesn't make it any less hot in my opinion. If you want a pure white snake, you could produce a Super Lesser or White Diamond.

I actually prefer the Yellow blotches as opposed to the pure white! I was surprised the first time I saw one in Anaheim since I had believed that Super Fires were pure white with black eyes (probably how they were marketed)!
This has to be my favorite yet! Congrats Dave! Imagine some Pastel running through that snake!

looks like a Pinstripe Paradox to me???

My guess is this snake is a mojave super sulfur and the mojave is what is causing the extreme amount of pattern and color. I have two presumed super mojave super sulfurs and they are a two tone white, with the exact same pattern starting on the top of the head and running the entire length of the snake. So what I'm thinking is the mojave adds the color/pattern and the super mojave turns it into a different color white then the lower parts on my double supers.

Eric

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I think the variable blotching on the Black Eyed Leucistic is pretty damn cool. The reason that the "posterchild" for this snake was a pure white snake was due to some creative photoshopping when the snake was first introduced to people in the US. I personally can't recall seeing any super Fires that are pure white. I feel like Bob Clark may have had one on his table at Daytona a couple of years ago that was but I could be wrong. Just because it isn't pure white doesn't make it any less hot in my opinion. If you want a pure white snake, you could produce a Super Lesser or White Diamond.

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that snake bob had did have a few yellow scales.