Thoughts on Hybrids

What are your thoughts on Hybrids?

Superball Blood x BP
Woma x Ball python
ect.


Whats your Fav. i like the Superballs

Some of them look pretty cool. It's just too bad they aren't born sterile, because most hybrid projects seem to end up muddying pure blood lines, which can never be undone. Look what it's done to the carpet hobby.

I think hybrids are interesting creatures and would love to have some in my collection one day.

However, i also think the people that breed and sell them need to make sure that whoever the animal ends up with even years down the road knows they are getting a hybrid.

Its all about responsible ownership.

this is going to go bad pretty quick!

i love them!!

Most F2s and beyond I don't like the looks of, they drift genetically towards one species or the other, or at least appear to in looks. I love many F1 hybrids, but wouldn't ever consider a hybrid anything more than a neat pet.

Personally, I think hybrids are an abomination to nature.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Personally, I think hybrids are an abomination to nature.

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I think the same thing about the mutations reptile keepers breed for, but I still like 'em

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I think the same thing about the mutations reptile keepers breed for, but I still like 'em

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Every base mutation keepers breed for, and even some combos and homozygous co-doms were originally found in the wild.

I think some hybrids are really cool looking. I do thinkt here should be an effort to mark permamently any hybrid to make sure it's identified as such.
HOWEVER...
I produced hybrid tegus and I could NOT find any way to permamently mark the babys. They were too small to chip, and no tag stays on when the animal sheds like tegus shed. Rings would have been outgrown.
With any snake that is large enough to be chipped.. (or lizard for that matter) that might be a possibilty.
As long as the hybrid is sold as a hybrid, then I think they are fine. I agree though.. F1 generation tends to be the cool ones, with all following ones drifting towards one parent or the other.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Every base mutation keepers breed for, and even some combos and homozygous co-doms were originally found in the wild.

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So are two headed reptiles. THAT is something I would be seriously opposed to someone breeding, however. At that point, the health of the animal is very much at stake.

I very much respect people's concerns about hybrids, which are very real and serious.

Personally I'd like to hope that responsible breeding and ownership can keep future python hybridization from causing the issues that have come up with other hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Personally, I think hybrids are an abomination to nature.

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So are morphs, to a certain extent, its definitely not natural and is done by man for looks. Personally I think the most beautiful ball python is a NORMAL ball python. But I do like the looks of alot of morphs.

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Originally Posted by zackw419

So are morphs, to a certain extent, its definitely not natural and is done by man for looks. Personally I think the most beautiful ball python is a NORMAL ball python. But I do like the looks of alot of morphs.

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Here's where I draw my personal line in the sand; BP morphs, while not naturally occuring, are products of the same species of snake. Hybrids are not, and that's why I think they are abominations...at least I stopped short of saying they should all be thrown in the freezer or shot in the head like zombies....oh wait, I guess I didn't stop short:fishslap:

what are the hybrids, is that like a pied or spider ima newb and i just bought what is suposed to be a cross from a pastel to spider

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Originally Posted by Duane

what are the hybrids, is that like a pied or spider ima newb and i just bought what is suposed to be a cross from a pastel to spider

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What you list are BP morphs. Hybrids are two seperate species breed together like a Ball Python and a Blood Python, or a Ball Python and an Angolan Python, or a Ball Python and a three headed goat.

Ahhh slim you answered my question right before i posted it lol thanx but what are considered hybrids

ok got ya slim

my thoughts are this can it happen in nature sure some can and do. would i do it? perhaps one day i have a woma and i think that cross is hot. will i ever sell one if i did make one? sure if the person wants a hybrid and understands the point stressed about breeding. i do believe they should be chipped, like wolfy said some cannot be chipped unless they are adults.

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Originally Posted by Slim

... or a Ball Python and a three headed goat.

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OHMIGOD... they've made a BOAT!!! I want one. I have always wanted one!

B

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

OHMIGOD... they've made a BOAT!!! I want one. I have always wanted one!

B

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:rofl::rofl::rofl:

It has three bows and a really skinny stern!

Misread nevermind

I don't mind it.
I'd own one.
But I wouldn't breed them.

I think they should just be novelty type of snakes.
Not something to mix and match.

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Originally Posted by eulenspiegel

This is in no way an abomination and I find it sad that just because the animal has a outwardly birth defect that doesn't harm its quality of life for the most part you consider it an abomination. Siamese twins aren't abominations they can't help how they were born.

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Till, just to be clear, I hope you know I wasn' concidering conjoined twins to be abominations...that's something that occures from time to time, and can't be avoided, at least I don't think it can be, yet.

When humans get involved and start pairing up disimilar species together, that's when I start having a problem.

I think I may be the only person with snakes that is relatively ambivalent about hybrids?

Ouch, what is that? It hurts... oh it is just a fence post.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by Slim

Here's where I draw my personal line in the sand; BP morphs, while not naturally occuring, are products of the same species of snake. Hybrids are not, and that's why I think they are abominations...at least I stopped short of saying they should all be thrown in the freezer or shot in the head like zombies....oh wait, I guess I didn't stop short:fishslap:

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I am completely aware of that. Hybridizing is MORE of an abomination to nature, but to some extent, morphs are too. I am by no means talking trash about morphs, i love different morphs. Just like dog breeds, life wouldn't be the same without dog breeds, but they are by no means natural. I'm just saying :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

I think I may be the only person with snakes that is relatively ambivalent about hybrids?

Bruce

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To be honest, Bruce, I'm not sure what it is about hybrids that gets me worked up. I don't have any real moral, religous, or scientific objections to them, but from the first time I saw some in K. McCurley's book, they just struck me as wrong. I don't have a lot to back up my personal dislike for them. I guess it's just a gut check thing.

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Originally Posted by zackw419

I am completely aware of that. Hybridizing is MORE of an abomination to nature, but to some extent, morphs are too. I am by no means talking trash about morphs, i love different morphs. Just like dog breeds, life wouldn't be the same without dog breeds, but they are by no means natural. I'm just saying :rolleyes:

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And I'm just saying that it's my personal line in the sand, I wouldn't support making it illegal or anything like that.

I like dogs as well, and I especially like mixed breed mutts, but they are all the same species who seek each other out for copulation and reproduction. I would not be happy about a dog x cat cross.

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Originally Posted by Slim

To be honest, Bruce, I'm not sure what it is about hybrids that gets me worked up. I don't have any real moral, religous, or scientific objections to them, but from the first time I saw some in K. McCurley's book, they just struck me as wrong. I don't have a lot to back up my personal dislike for them. I guess it's just a gut check thing.

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I think that is fair Slim. I know breeders that will not trade with anyone that works with hybrids. Based on their beliefs.

Hybrids are a hugely polarizing issue in this community.

I think regardless of what side of the issue people are on, discussing it and thinking it through are never bad things. There will never be a workable solution that encompasses both camps. The ends are too extreme.

We bring our conscsience (yeesh i can spell on other days) to every thing we do including this hobby.

Bruce

Slim, I'm with you on that. I don't have any real reason to dislike hybrids; I just do.

When snakes can interbreed in the wild, it's OK-ish. A perfect example would be carpondros; they share the same range in the wild and thus it is possible for them to hybridize (however unlikely this may be).

However, when Burms for example are bred to balls, it's just too much for me. It goes against the natural way of things...

I have no problems with hybrids. I can see why people are opposed to them, but I dont hear too many people complaining about genetically engineered (aka hybrid in most cases) food crops to keep production efficient. Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Slim

And I'm just saying that it's my personal line in the sand, I wouldn't support making it illegal or anything like that.

I like dogs as well, and I especially like mixed breed mutts, but they are all the same species who seek each other out for copulation and reproduction. I would not be happy about a dog x cat cross.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I have no problems with hybrids. I can see why people are opposed to them, but I dont hear too many people complaining about genetically engineered (aka hybrid in most cases) food crops to keep production efficient. Just my 2 cents.

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I guess in my mind the difference is that food crops don't have brains and blood running through them. Probably a weak distinction, but it's just a personal feeling.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Personally, I think hybrids are an abomination to nature.

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I second that!

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I have no problems with hybrids. I can see why people are opposed to them, but I dont hear too many people complaining about genetically engineered (aka hybrid in most cases) food crops to keep production efficient. Just my 2 cents.

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Do you produce hybrid snakes for eating?

What's wrong with them????

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Originally Posted by zackw419

So are morphs, to a certain extent, its definitely not natural and is done by man for looks. Personally I think the most beautiful ball python is a NORMAL ball python. But I do like the looks of alot of morphs.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Here's where I draw my personal line in the sand; BP morphs, while not naturally occuring, are products of the same species of snake. Hybrids are not, and that's why I think they are abominations...at least I stopped short of saying they should all be thrown in the freezer or shot in the head like zombies....oh wait, I guess I didn't stop short:fishslap:

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Morphs are natural occurances in nature. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that some genetics engineer created these mutation in an underground lab in New Mexico.

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Every base mutation keepers breed for, and even some combos and homozygous co-doms were originally found in the wild.

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Plus, every one of them is the same species, sub species and locality. While some of them might not survive long in the wild, a lot of them would likely thrive in the wild, and some even more so than normal, wild type balls. Some morphs have colors and patterns that would make them better camoflauged in the wild, and some have feeding responses that seem to trump normals. While we are heavily involved in producing greater numbers of each mutation, I don't think they can be put anywhere near the same catagory as hybrids, or even intergrates.

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I have no problems with hybrids. I can see why people are opposed to them, but I dont hear too many people complaining about genetically engineered (aka hybrid in most cases) food crops to keep production efficient. Just my 2 cents.

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I complain heavily about GE food. One complaint I have is that if we are that worried about the food supply, maybe we should start by stopping the practice of paying farmers to not use their land for food production, instead of paying a bunch of scientists to grow less nutritious food than what's found in nature. :gj:

genetically engineered and hybrid are not exacly the same either

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Morphs are natural occurances in nature. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that some genetics engineer created these mutation in an underground lab in New Mexico.


Plus, every one of them is the same species, sub species and locality. While some of them might not survive long in the wild, a lot of them would likely thrive in the wild, and some even more so than normal, wild type balls. Some morphs have colors and patterns that would make them better camoflauged in the wild, and some have feeding responses that seem to trump normals. While we are heavily involved in producing greater numbers of each mutation, I don't think they can be put anywhere near the same catagory as hybrids, or even intergrates.

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I wondered if anyone was going to catch this. Every ball python base morph that is available can trace its ancestry to a wild caught specimen. When breeding morphs (even combos) there is nothing being done that can't occur in the wild. Although unlikely, it is POSSIBLE that there are wild bumblebees, spogs, axanthic spiders.... crawling around in the wilds of Africa.

Steve

Now this is wierd... because I have a gut-check feeling on this too. That it shouldn't be done. But, I don't know why I feel that way when I don't have the same gut-check feeling for cockapoos and labradoodles...

Perhaps because labradoodles are not hybrids? That would be closer to a morph than a hybrid. Labs and Poodles are both domestic dogs.

I dislike wolf hybrids, but that is because I feel if you want a wolf, get a wolf, and expect it to act like a wolf. Dog/wolf hybrids usually are owned by people who want them to act like dogs, but look like wolves, and they generally fail to do either. I've seen more malamute/husky/shepards mutts that looked wolf-like, than wolf hybrids. And wolf hybrids always have been neurotic either being aggressive or overly submissive, fear biters or freaks.
(yes I'm aware this is the point that someone will post that their family wolf mix was lassie in disguise and saved Timmy from the well and balanced the checkbook every sunday, I'm talking about all the wolf hybrids *I* personally have encountered)

Hybrid snakes are okay by me, as long as they are labeled hybrids. I don't really care much, but I don't really want to own one, nor do I want to breed one. However I did breed hybrid tegus, but since red and black-and-white tegus are both argentine tegus, I'll assume this is a possible natural cross as well.
It doesn't bother me that people hate hybrids, any more than it bothers me that people hate morphs, or hate cats, or hate pick-up trucks. Everyone is entitled to dislike something "just because", and if they have a legit reason, then all the more reason they are entitled to their opinion. There's plenty of folks who hate snakes, so why not those that hate morphs or hybrids?

I have no problem with hybrids. Although I would probably never own one. I love the temperment of a ball, mixing that with the moodyness of other pythons just would not fit in my family.
I would also never own a wold hybrid (I do have small food sized children, and their safety comes first)

But the way I feel is if they will breed when put together, without having to have "help" to do what comes natural, than it "could" happen in the wild (other than those on different continents)

after all wolves are breeding with coyotes, and people want to kill all the hybrids, but that would be nature just evolving.
also polar bears and grizzly bears are creating hybrids.

Although part of me wants man to just stay out of mother natures business.

There are a few words in the english language that I disagree with how they are used.

Nature, natural, and all derivatives thereof.

Humans are animals too, how are we no longer part of the grand scheme that people refer to as "nature"?

I submit that we are indeed a part of nature, and any actions we take are natural(occur in nature). If that somehow is a catalyst for the production of hybrid snakes, python hybridization happens in nature.

Another hybridization issue: I personally think that sterile hybrids are more an abomination than non-sterile hybrids. If you can produce viable offspring of differing "species", their genes are compatible enough for me to feel no moral objections to their creation and existence.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Perhaps because labradoodles are not hybrids? That would be closer to a morph than a hybrid. Labs and Poodles are both domestic dogs.

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I'm not sure about this Theresa. I think a labradoor and a poodle are 2 different species of dogs analogous to a blood python and a ball python both being a different species of python. A black poodle and a white poodle would be more of like a morph pairing. So, I think, technically, it's a hybrid. I'm not sure though, because I'm really not that great with genetics and the like. Where's asplundii when you need him...

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Everyone is entitled to dislike something "just because", and if they have a legit reason, then all the more reason they are entitled to their opinion.

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That's my problem. I can't find a legit reason why my gut-feeling tells me no... I've thought about it a bit after seeing the latest snakebytes episode where they showed the blood/bp mix and I went, huh? Dunno. Keep the thoughts coming guys. This would be a great topic for a friendly debate. I'm totally on the fence on this one.

All domesticated dogs are of the species Canis lupus familiaris, they have been line bred for so long that we have so many different breeds. They may look as different to one another as a ball python and a blood python, but the genetic drift between dog breeds is so minimal that they are considered by the scientific community as the same species, while the genetic differences between various python species is enough to designate them as different species.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

I think I may be the only person with snakes that is relatively ambivalent about hybrids?

Ouch, what is that? It hurts... oh it is just a fence post.

Bruce

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Nope :). I like them but... I don't know, it get's complicated quick with Hybrids

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I have no problems with hybrids. I can see why people are opposed to them, but I dont hear too many people complaining about genetically engineered (aka hybrid in most cases) food crops to keep production efficient. Just my 2 cents.

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Gotta hang out with the hippies in my neighbourhood... they LOSE their minds over that issue.

:)

Bruce

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Humans are animals too, how are we no longer part of the grand scheme that people refer to as "nature"?

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Because aside from ants, humans are the only other species to actively domesticate and purposely breed animals for our use.

We are not of nature anymore, not since we were hunter gatherers. We've gone above and beyond destroying it for our own needs, regardless of the fact that we need nature to survive.

Animals are a part of a chain. They succumb to nature's whims, chance etc.

Humans work to never having to succumb to chance. We do things to nature that would never occur without us. We work to get away from the "cruelty" of nature.

All dog breeds are the same species, therefor mutts are not hybrids.
A pekeneise is the same species as a great dane.
When we've been breeding ball pythons in captivity for about 4000 years, we might have different "breeds" of ball python that are structurally different too.

in 4,000 years can I have a BP with bat wings? or an extended frill along its spine...
Oh heck, just make it a little dragon:D

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Originally Posted by JamieLynn

in 4,000 years can I have a BP with bat wings? or an extended frill along its spine...
Oh heck, just make it a little dragon:D

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um...only if you name him puff the magic