Cinnamon/Black Pastel

Theres been some discussion about Cinnamon and Black Pastel being the same snake.. Im wondering what everyone thinks. I see distinct differences in the two that make me feel not totally the same. And even though they can produce the same super form that doesnt mean they are the same.
So heres some pics to show what I mean..
Heres my Cinni
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5064.jpg
Cinni Head shot
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5071.jpg

Black Pastel
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...1/100_5011.jpg
Head shot
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5072.jpg

And Togehter
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5066.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5073.jpg

Theres noticable color differences. The cinnis head is definately more redish brown and smoother looking than the black. The black pastel also has some more speckling on it than the Cinni.

Well I looked at them side by side when we chose our Cinnamon hatchling last year at BHB and they didn't look the same to me. :)

I've looked at them side by side at several shows, and while I see variation from animal to animal, I don't see much difference between the Black Pastel and the Cinny.

Seeing that i own both and can see the differences even though im color blind I have to say different.

These mutations are on the same allele, and are very similar, but they are not the same mutation, as they come from different original animals.

This is kind of like comparing butters and lessers. Different mutation but similar supers and can be crossed to produce the same(generalized) supers.

I beleive both have a place in a breeders collection, especially with the problems associated with snout deformities in cinxcin or BpastelxBpastel supers.

Wicked snakes BTW!!!
Albie

i think they are different because of the supers. the supers look different.

If we're talking the selectively bred blacks and cinnamons, yes I certainly see a difference between them. There's no confusing one of Albey's cinnamons with one of say Gulf Coast's black pastels.

The stuff that people are just tossing together with no thought and muddying the characteristics, those I can see why people would confuse them.

Really good point Shadera.

I say they are different especially when you compare very good examples of both. :)

I voted same, but for a different reason. I really don't think there are only two specific genes, one for Black Pastels and one for Cinnamons. I've seen some Cinnies that look like Black Pastels and some Black Pastels that look like cinnies. There are a LOT of different lines out there and I think a lot of the people that imported them decided to name them one or the other. For example, look at all of the different pastels out there. There used to be many lines but with so many different combos and inter-breeding, most pastels are just referred to now as the generic "pastel". I've bred a number of Cinny clutches from my BHB line with different females, and some come out looking very much like a Black Pastel with high contrast colors whereas others come out looking like a typical Cinnamon with a nice cinny color, faded head and blushing.

Overall I would give the same recommendation that I would when buying a pastel or any snake: buy the snake, not the name.

Here's one cinny that I hatched last year that resembles the above Black Pastel more than the Cinny:

http://superiorserpents.com/PubPics/8ball2.jpg

Well wouldn't the easy way to prove it be to breed a cinnamon to a black pastel and see if you get any supers? If you get a super it would mean they are the same right? If they are different then they would make something new..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevin_Hornby

Well wouldn't the easy way to prove it be to breed a cinnamon to a black pastel and see if you get any supers? If you get a super it would mean they are the same right? If they are different then they would make something new..

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It's been done...

Super is a variation of color between the Black Super and the Cinny Super.

If you breed a mojave to a lesser don't you get a bel. So those that make them the same 2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakedork

If you breed a mojave to a lesser don't you get a bel. So those that make them the same 2

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If that is your train of thought...

Then all of these are the same:

Mojave
Lesser
Butter
Het Russo
.....


The list goes on..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

If that is your train of thought...

Then all of these are the same:

Mojave
Lesser
Butter
Het Russo
.....


The list goes on..

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and I would guess that would be where I have my opinion they arent the same. Because to me.. Most all those when a combo with something else doesnt look the same. And even though the super may be similar I am on the page that there is a genetic difference somewhere or they would look the same..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadi11

and I would guess that would be where I have my opinion they arent the same. Because to me.. Most all those when a combo with something else doesnt look the same. And even though the super may be similar I am on the page that there is a genetic difference somewhere or they would look the same..

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I agree with you.

I am of the mindset that they are not the same. They are similar, yes.. But not the same.. Not at all.

Doesn't this look like a Black Pastel?

Does this look like a Cinnamon?

I honestly think alot of the problem is theres quite a few people who only consider them one. So it doesnt matter what diferences they have they are called the same name to that person. Even though they each should have their own characteristics. You will see on many pages that people say black pastel, cinnamon thru the whole page.
So my question for you then I guess would be do you think the Het Russo and the Mojave are the same because the super is the same even though they both look totally different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadi11

I honestly think alot of the problem is theres quite a few people who only consider them one. So it doesnt matter what diferences they have they are called the same name to that person. Even though they each should have their own characteristics. You will see on many pages that people say black pastel, cinnamon thru the whole page.
So my question for you then I guess would be do you think the Het Russo and the Mojave are the same because the super is the same even though they both look totally different.

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NO!
Good question. I dont know how to explain it properly but the BEL is not just a super, it is a total lack of pigmentation while the super cin/blckpstl is all-over one colour pigmentation.
The BEL is confusing because there are so many combo's that can produce it. I'm definitely not an expert, hopefully someone who knows more can tell us the nitty gritty on BELs.

thinking about this more I have to say it with alleles.
cinnamon and black pastel are different alleles that use the same locus, the same way that mojaves, butters, lessers etc are different alleles that use the same locus.
The mutations are different, so each has a seperate phenotype(look)but because they occupy the same locus the homozygenous(super) form is similar. not exactly the same, ie super mojave vs super lesser.
I hope I got this right.. ppl feel free to shoot me down lol:D

I think they are different. The cinny's have a very unique color to them and the black pastels have funky alien heads. The only way to describe is is the alien heads have a sort of pattern inside of the brownish area....hopefully you guys can understand what I'm trying to say :weirdface

There are a few difference in the black pastels and cinnamon pastels.

One of the differences is a subtle difference in color. The black pastels are a very deep brown to the point of black with high gold. The cinny pastels are a deep dark burnt brown with a faded gold. Now obviously this can vary slightly from snake to snake.

Both pastels can produce a super form of a total black python, but when you bring a normal pastel into the lines it changes it up. Pastel x cinny will get you a pewter. Black pastel x pastel will get you a black pewter. Carrying it further...
Pewter x Pewter will produce a sterling. Black pewter x black pewter will get you a silver streak. Comparing a silver streak to a sterling there is a considerable (and almost always) different type of pattern.

Furthermore, black pastels have had bad genes past on to a lot of them due to early line breeding (similar the the "wobble" spiders from the nerd line). Mishapen heads, upturned nostrils and mouths, and facial deformities are common in them.

Definately not the same snake. Similar... but not the same.

Like most older morphs I think there is problems due to the fact that there was a rush to breed these animals. Putting them with any normal you could get your hands on to produce more to maximize profit. Part of this is needed so you didn't go broke back then when you were spending several thousand dollars on one snake with one gene behind it. If you didn't mass produce you would have gone broke very quickly. Now it seems that most breeders focus there efforts on nice looking normals or combo morphs. There is definate problems with some pastels(cinnamon,black,lemon,graziani,etc.). You can still see this in combo breeding today. Why is it that you can see several lemon blast or bees, that just are not as nice clean looking as others. It is time as breeders we decide to attempt to produce with the best possible appearance. I have spent alot more on animals that look better than buy cheap just to say I have this or that. My 2 cents

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snake Daddy Reptiles

There are a few difference in the black pastels and cinnamon pastels.

One of the differences is a subtle difference in color. The black pastels are a very deep brown to the point of black with high gold. The cinny pastels are a deep dark burnt brown with a faded gold. Now obviously this can vary slightly from snake to snake.

Both pastels can produce a super form of a total black python, but when you bring a normal pastel into the lines it changes it up. Pastel x cinny will get you a pewter. Black pastel x pastel will get you a black pewter. Carrying it further...
Pewter x Pewter will produce a sterling. Black pewter x black pewter will get you a silver streak. Comparing a silver streak to a sterling there is a considerable (and almost always) different type of pattern.



Definately not the same snake. Similar... but not the same.

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So what do you get with black pewter x pewter?? And when black x cinni, what super do you get if they make the same super? And what about the ones that arent supers? What if the breeder can't tell the difference between black or cinnis in that clutch and named the blacks cinnis and the cinnis blacks, or named all of them just one name and sell them to the market? Don't you guys think that might have been done already?

Im no expert and most experts say they are different. Me I think they are the same like brothers. Not exactly the same but the same bloodline. Come on guys, even twins have differences if you wanna look at it that way...Now a spider is surely a different morph. So is a pinstripe :)
Mojaves, lessers, butters, they are like cousins. I consider them in the same family of looks. Nothing dramatic about their differences. But I can tell the mojave is different from the butter.

ive seen both cinnies and black pastels look like each other. the better question would be is what if neither actually is a super but both carry another gene that creates the all one color snake

if they look the same and create same kind of supers then that should tell you they are the same kind. If bred together and create a super than that should tell you even more.. But if they creat different supers then you can say they are different.. They both make black snake!! They both look the same!! Don't force them to be different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t-Roy

if they look the same and create same kind of supers then that should tell you they are the same kind.

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The operative word here being "IF". In most of the cases that are discussed, the supers aren't identical - they're still supers though because they mutated alleles reside on the same locus.

Really, at the end of the day, we're banging around in the dark because we haven't got a clue as to what the BP genome map looks like. As long as we insist on cataloging morphs based on caveman style observations, there can never be a positive determination.

My opinion?

BP Breeding is just like any other profitable organization.

If you can convince enough suckers something is different to make money off the you will. This point is made pretty obvious by all the 'this snake is the same as this snake' threads.

And trust me, there are plenty of suckers out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snake Daddy Reptiles

There are a few difference in the black pastels and cinnamon pastels.

One of the differences is a subtle difference in color. The black pastels are a very deep brown to the point of black with high gold. The cinny pastels are a deep dark burnt brown with a faded gold. Now obviously this can vary slightly from snake to snake.

Both pastels can produce a super form of a total black python, but when you bring a normal pastel into the lines it changes it up. Pastel x cinny will get you a pewter. Black pastel x pastel will get you a black pewter. Carrying it further...
Pewter x Pewter will produce a sterling. Black pewter x black pewter will get you a silver streak. Comparing a silver streak to a sterling there is a considerable (and almost always) different type of pattern.

Furthermore, black pastels have had bad genes past on to a lot of them due to early line breeding (similar the the "wobble" spiders from the nerd line). Mishapen heads, upturned nostrils and mouths, and facial deformities are common in them.

Definately not the same snake. Similar... but not the same.

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if i'm not mistaken,isnt a silver streak or sterling, a super pastel and either a black pastel or cinnie,and a silver bullet,a super cinnie/black and pastel?..could be wrong...but i am sure it has been shown both can be made with either the black or the cinnie..to me,they do the same thing over all,and i really dont care for the black pastel,though i have read with a black x cinnie the super doesnt have the same deformities

It's impossible to know without ADN if they are the same gene or not, or if they reside on the same loci.

They could be on 2 different loci, and still make a super all black when the 2 gene are present on an animal.

To have a super black snake (or brown), you don't need both gene to be on the same loci.

But that doesn't matter to me. The fact that together they produce the same type of animal, that the look is the same, and that the single allele can look one or the other, that mean they should be called the same.

I think what's important here is WHAT THEY DO and not WHERE THEY COME FROM or WHAT THEY ARE.

I don't care where they come from, but only what they can do since you can do nothing about it other than making speculation.

I was under the impression they were one in the same because they can produce the same combos. But after reading through this thread I think they are different, at the very least in color/pattern. They both appear to have their own distinct look, IMO. Though they can look very similar sometimes. But I agree with Watever, what they do, is more important than what they are.

The supers do not look the same. Black pastel supers are black and cinny supers are brown.

With any morph you are gonna get variations. I have seen adult pastels that look like normals but yet they are not. Good examples of each morph should have noticeable differences. If you look at the hunter's guide it will point out the specific differences. In my experience they age differently and affect combos differently. Yes they are some that look like the other but IMO they are not good examples of the morphs, which we see all the time. The normals used to produce a morph have influence in the outcome of the babies so that has alot to do with it too.

Here are a pic of two adults side by side and I dont think there is any mistaking the two.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...etsBlackie.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t-Roy

if they look the same and create same kind of supers then that should tell you they are the same kind. If bred together and create a super than that should tell you even more.. But if they creat different supers then you can say they are different.. They both make black snake!! They both look the same!! Don't force them to be different.

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They dont both make a black snake,:colbert: one makes a brown snake and one makes a black snake. The pewters are also very different as well as the combos with lessers and other morphs.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

The supers do not look the same. Black pastel supers are black and cinny supers are brown.

With any morph you are gonna get variations. I have seen adult pastels that look like normals but yet they are not. Good examples of each morph should have noticeable differences. If you look at the hunter's guide it will point out the specific differences. In my experience they age differently and affect combos differently. Yes they are some that look like the other but IMO they are not good examples of the morphs, which we see all the time. The normals used to produce a morph have influence in the outcome of the babies so that has a lot to do with it too.

Here are a pic of two adults side by side and I dont think there is any mistaking the two.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...etsBlackie.jpg

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I agree with Raul 100% -- when see one that resembles the other -- it is likely a poor example. When comparing similar morphs I prefer to see how said similar morphs appear in combination with the second morph in the combo being "shared".

I don't have to look very long to see that a Lithium (Butter Cinny), Black Platinum (Lesser Black Pastel), Butter Black Pastel, and Lesser Cinny are different in color and pattern. Below is the Lithium -- other combos have been posted in the past. I was really surprised :O how different the Butter Cinny and Lesser Cinny appeared -- which is why I believe the Lesser and Butter are similar but different as well as the Cinny and Black Pastel.

It is the COMBOS that show what a morph "is" by what it "does" with other morphs -- rather than comparing just the base morphs -- I believe. :snake:


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...rams_thumb.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

It is the COMBOS that show what a morph "is" by what it "does" with other morphs -- rather than comparing just the base morphs -- I believe. :snake:

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That doesn't make much sense, though. If you were to breed the two above snakes to a pastel or Butter, of course they would look different. But what if you bred a dark Cinny similar to that Black Pastel or a light Black Pastel similar to the Cinny? How much different would the combos be then?

For example, my cinnies tend to be on the dark side. The below cinny looks much closer to the above Black Pastel then it does to the cinny.

My point is that the genetics are very similar, but there are obviously differences in the lines that came across. Who is to say that all of the original imports that were labeled as such have the same genetic makeup? Do all Cinnamon lines have the same exact gene that make them a Cinny, and likewise with Black Pastels?

http://www.superiorserpents.com/PubPics/CM02s2.jpg

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Originally Posted by xdeus

That doesn't make much sense, though. If you were to breed the two above snakes to a pastel or Butter, of course they would look different. But what if you bred a dark Cinny similar to that Black Pastel or a light Black Pastel similar to the Cinny? How much different would the combos be then?

For example, my cinnies tend to be on the dark side. The below cinny looks much closer to the above Black Pastel then it does to the cinny.

My point is that the genetics are very similar, but there are obviously differences in the lines that came across. Who is to say that all of the original imports that were labeled as such have the same genetic makeup? Do all Cinnamon lines have the same exact gene that make them a Cinny, and likewise with Black Pastels?

http://www.superiorserpents.com/PubPics/CM02s2.jpg

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Yes, I believe they are different by line regardless of color. I work with Ian G. Black Pastels, Graziani Cinnys, and BHB Cinnys. There is a DISTINCT DIFFERENCE between the 2 lines(Blacks and Cinnys) that is independent of color. I am doing one special pairing with a FANTASTIC Graziani female based on her color and blushing -- both of which I have never seen in any BHB Cinny. Those that have a HIGH RED/BLUSHED Graziani know how incredible they look.:)

The Ian G. Black should appear to be a pattern morph as much a color morph -- if it is at least a "good" example. I am breeding both morphs this season and am excited about their offspring. I don't look at them as interchangable.

In my collection they are different animals(Cinnys and Blacks) that produce different results. ;)

They are similar in their heterozygous forms but very different when you mix them with other morphs or create supers :)

When you look at the "lines" though there is definitely a difference even in the base form of the morph... its easy to tell between a BHB cinnamon and an Ian G black pastel for example.

Different. Definitely more cousins than brothers
Ok can anyone post a picture pc pewter. And black pewter to compare this to combos?

And other question is how cinnamon x black pastel combo looks like more black or more brown ?

Tne cinny has a lot more lower blushings...

Heres my Black Pastel.....Don't think anyone will say she looks like a Cinny :)


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...1/blackpas.jpg


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...d1/blkpas1.jpg


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...nd1/blkpas.jpg

tottaly diferent XD

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Originally Posted by spk329

Heres my Black Pastel.....Don't think anyone will say she looks like a Cinny :)


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...1/blackpas.jpg


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...d1/blkpas1.jpg


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...nd1/blkpas.jpg

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Wow, that's a REALLY cool black pastel!!

Yea im gonna have to say they look very different.
The black pastels seem to have a more intense black and a busier pattern, while the cinnamon has more blushing and seems to brown out more with age.
Just my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spk329

Heres my Black Pastel.....Don't think anyone will say she looks like a Cinny :)

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...1/blackpas.jpg

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That's a beautiful black pastel, as an example of just how different they are, here is a comparison shot of one of my Cinnamons.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...nnamonboy4.jpg

I think they looks like a completely different morph.

They're definitely a different morph--cinnamons, true to their name, are brownish colored.
The pure super forms are also different in color.

The genes are allelic, so a cinnamon is to a black pastel what a mojave is to a lesser platinum--similar, and able to cross to produce an intergraded super form, but definitely not the same morph.

Sorry but I just have to ask now. Does this mean that the black pastel makes a black panda pied, while the cinny would make a brown panda pied?

They look different, but so do many of the "pastel" variations that all combine to make Super Pastels.

The Cinnamon and Black Pastel combine to make what appears to be a "Super", which would make one believe they are just different variations of the same, just like pastels.

The clincher would be if a Cinnamon X Black Pastel super were bred to a normal. If they are different, there would be a 25% chance that you would get more all black snakes out of the clutch. If the are the same, just different variations of the same, then the offspring would all appear to be either Cinnamons or Black Pastels.

This probably already been done and someone out there knows for sure the answer to this question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JayCee

They look different, but so do many of the "pastel" variations that all combine to make Super Pastels.

The Cinnamon and Black Pastel combine to make what appears to be a "Super", which would make one believe they are just different variations of the same, just like pastels.

The clincher would be if a Cinnamon X Black Pastel super were bred to a normal. If they are different, there would be a 25% chance that you would get more all black snakes out of the clutch. If the are the same, just different variations of the same, then the offspring would all appear to be either Cinnamons or Black Pastels.

This probably already been done and someone out there knows for sure the answer to this question.

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I think it works like a super black pastel and throws all cinny or black pastels, no normals and can't reproduce itself

This has been a topic that has been going on for a very very long time. People will believe they're the same and others will believe they're different.

Personally, I believe they're different.
They look different to me and their combos look different.


And one feature that makes a black pastel a BP is the black squiggles in the alien head patterns. Cinnys never have this trait. And if you get a cinny with the squiggles, its most likely a poor quality BP.


Here's my bf's BP:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...f/DSC_0692.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...f/DSC_0698.jpg

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Totally differnt animals...
My cinny..
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/...318_011324.jpg

My Black Pastel..
[IMG]http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w372/MonkDad83/IMG_20120318_010906.jpg[/IMG

Also i've noticed black pastel supers carry a cleaner look to them. But both are awesome to have

Totally different animals. I dont even know why the argument is still an argument. Both different. Both produce different supers. The panda pied is a super black pastel pied.

I don't think it's a debate anymore lol. The people who think they're the same are simply incorrect lol. It's no longer personal opinion :D. I think a high quality / good example of either would cause zero confusion when looking at it lol.

The vote speaks for itself. Majority rules! woo lol